Fitting In Costs You More Than You Think | Steve Pratt
Steve Pratt wrote a whole book about standing out, then spent most of his life making sure he never did.
If you've ever dressed, spoken or shown up a certain way just to keep the job, the respect or the invitation coming, you know that feeling from the inside.
Steve built and sold a podcast agency, then spent months in his basement working out what came next. He turned it into an experiment: no smartwatch, no Strava, a month off his phone, a year without a drink, and ketamine-assisted therapy, all logged on his Substack.
None of it made the questions vanish overnight. But a counsellor told him something after one session he hasn't forgotten: there's nothing left to fix, you're done.
If you've been playing a role so long you've forgotten what's underneath it, this one's for you.
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Meet the Guest
Steve Pratt
Steve Pratt co-founded Pacific Content, described as one of the world's first branded podcast agencies, which was acquired by Rogers Communications in 2019. Before that he worked in television, including at MTV, and ran digital audio and a content innovation lab at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, where he launched one of the first legal music podcasts. He is the author of Earn It: Unconventional Strategies for Brave Marketers. Since leaving the company he built, he has spent a year publicly experimenting his way through midlife: ditching his smartwatch and Strava, a month off his phone, a year without alcohol and ketamine-assisted therapy, writing it all up with his friend Geoff Siskind on their newsletter, The Midlife Field Guide. He lives in Vancouver, where his daughter Cedar recently joined him for a stand-up comedy course.
Earn It: Unconventional Strategies for Brave Marketers (book)
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:02:23
Unknown
Steve Pratt, welcome to don’t let the old man in.
00:00:03:00 - 00:00:08:18
Unknown
I am so excited to be here. Pod I I'm a long time, you know, listener
00:00:08:20 - 00:00:10:13
Unknown
to. I can't believe I'm actually here.
00:00:10:15 - 00:00:17:15
Unknown
Well, I've been looking for this for a while. Our mutual friend, Michael Stainer put us together about a year ago, wasn't it? I think.
00:00:17:17 - 00:00:24:08
Unknown
yeah. He was it was kind of before the show launched. And yeah, it's been a wonderful long distance friendship.
00:00:24:12 - 00:00:25:05
Unknown
fantastic.
00:00:25:07 - 00:00:27:12
Unknown
here's where I'm going to start.
00:00:27:14 - 00:00:39:10
Unknown
I met you first. You had a beard and you had just grown a beard. Because I didn't know that. Because I didn't know you without a beard. And you grew your first. Well, you grew your first and only beard at 53.
00:00:39:10 - 00:00:54:10
Unknown
you described it as your letting go type a Lego businessman, Steve, which is a fabulous description. What is Lego businessman? Steve? What was type A version of you and what did grow in a beard actually help you to do?
00:00:54:10 - 00:01:14:22
Unknown
So type a Lego businessman. Steve is something that my kids actually made fun of me about. Like, my kids called me Lego businessman because it looked like I just had this, like, exact same haircut all the time. Just, like, snapped on, like a piece of plastic on my head. And I wore my little suit and my little briefcase and went off to work and stuff like that.
00:01:14:24 - 00:01:23:04
Unknown
And I think they knew that that's not really who I was, that I was kind of like playing dress up and going to work and pretending to be a businessman
00:01:23:04 - 00:01:50:18
Unknown
when my actual self is much weirder and looser and, you know, more playful, I think. And I think I learned, you know, at various points in my life that fitting in and not standing out too much, but like kind of playing the thing that people are expecting or that they want is a path to success or achievement or not being judged or whatever it is.
00:01:50:20 - 00:02:03:07
Unknown
And so, you know, growing a beard was this thing that felt like this weird rebellion being like, oh, like my mother hates
00:02:03:09 - 00:02:07:22
Unknown
And I'm not even sure I like beards. I'm not even sure I can grow a beard.
00:02:07:22 - 00:02:14:18
Unknown
And we're going to find out whether there's other unlived Steve's inside of me that we haven't explored at this age.
00:02:14:19 - 00:02:36:17
Unknown
At age 53, which is kind of weird to me. Like, I've been able to grow a beard for decades and decades and have never done it almost out of fear. And then this is a side weird benefit of the beard. It also kind of helped me explore a world of manliness that I never really felt part of.
00:02:36:24 - 00:02:54:07
Unknown
I think I always felt like a little, a little bit less manly, or certainly not like what I was expecting when I was invited into more manly kind of conversations, when I suddenly had this hulking beard.
00:02:54:09 - 00:03:09:24
Unknown
liked it more than I thought I did, and it was one of those things where I never really had people talking to me about my appearance before. And a lot of people, I mean, I think a lot of people lied to me, to be honest. They
00:03:10:01 - 00:03:26:05
Unknown
you, you know, like this new, you know, beefier, manly or Steve. And then, you know, those closest to me would be like, it makes you look at least a decade older. Like, there's an enormous amount of gray in that thing. It ages you really badly.
00:03:26:05 - 00:03:31:00
Unknown
But pardon me, was just like, it was, again, like a, you know, almost like an inversion of the Lego businessman.
00:03:31:00 - 00:03:49:10
Unknown
It was trying on another different costume that I'd never been in, and it was kind of liberating. It was. It was almost just like, wow, yeah, I can do all this and it doesn't matter. And it it's fun and I can get rid of it whenever I want or grow it back, but it's, Yeah, I quite enjoyed it.
00:03:49:11 - 00:03:52:06
Unknown
know, what's funny about that story is I had the opposite.
00:03:52:08 - 00:04:12:20
Unknown
I've had this spirit since I was 19, and I've only taken it off twice. Once when my daughter Grace was born and her mom didn't talk to me for two weeks until I grew the beard back. And then Carol, my my my my my second wife. The same thing.
00:04:12:21 - 00:04:22:19
Unknown
She wouldn't talk to me till I grew up too. So I'm not sure that's a measure of manliness. Things to measure after don't like my face and therefore the beard helps.
00:04:22:21 - 00:04:43:16
Unknown
because like, it does challenge people's expectations of who you are or you're kind of jolts them out of being like, oh, I didn't even recognize you with or without a beard. It, yeah. It is something interesting around exploring your identity a little bit and how much it's tied to what it's already been or what people already think of you.
00:04:43:18 - 00:05:02:12
Unknown
You know what's interesting about this is you mentioned the idea of fitting in and the. And in your career, there were certain society expectations of what you needed to look like. And in your case, you worked in television, you worked in children's television, you worked at MTV, you're entrepreneur, you had your own business. You successfully sold your own business.
00:05:02:15 - 00:05:26:08
Unknown
So there's a whole kind of story around, you know, that you also wrote a book called Earn It, which is about standing out and being different, which is right up there behind your left shoulder. And, you know, the very, very subtle. You're earning attention as we speak. And what strikes me is the gap between the fitting end piece and the knowledge you have about standing out.
00:05:26:10 - 00:05:30:01
Unknown
did you start noticing the juxtaposition between both?
00:05:30:03 - 00:05:51:11
Unknown
Oh, it was sadly, it was only very recently. So this has been one of these, these midlife revelations where, you know, I've written about standing out, I've written like there's an entire chapter in the book about, like, embracing your weirdness and being the only one and celebrating that. And
00:05:51:15 - 00:05:59:18
Unknown
I've kind of gone back through a lot of this, you know, kind of excavating the different layers of my life through some of these midlife experiments.
00:05:59:18 - 00:06:06:11
Unknown
And I realized how much I have tried to fit in into certain circumstances my whole life.
00:06:06:11 - 00:06:19:04
Unknown
And I think, you know, some of that might be I moved around a lot when I was a kid, and I was always the new kid in school. And so you try and fit in rather than stand out and be, you know, you already stand out because you're the new kid.
00:06:19:04 - 00:06:39:06
Unknown
So you try and fit in or, you know, you go to a job and everybody's wearing a certain thing. And people who get promoted or, you know, get raises or whatever it is, act and dress a certain way or look a certain way. And so you learn like, oh, I guess that's what I have to do to do those things.
00:06:39:06 - 00:06:59:08
Unknown
it's funny to me, like even in my, in my job where like my job was selling creativity and making shows that are so unusual that they stand out and people pay a lot of attention to them. The way to sell a lot of those shows is talking to people in corporations, where you have to look a certain way
00:06:59:10 - 00:07:08:17
Unknown
way and be likable and friendly and, you know, relatively conflict averse, you know, to, to be successful at doing those sort of things.
00:07:08:18 - 00:07:30:08
Unknown
know, what I love about that is your story is is not unusual, right? Like what you've just said, I would imagine most people listening to this will recognize. And that's me. Like in order to be successful in particularly a corporate type life, but indeed in let's say you're in the construction industry, it's still there's norms and rituals that suit that industry.
00:07:30:10 - 00:07:39:18
Unknown
If you're in the pharmaceutical industry, there's nuances that are unique to that. And if you want to be successful to whatever industry, you have to get on with everybody else in that industry like there's no other way around
00:07:39:22 - 00:07:50:09
Unknown
And there's a huge benefit, which is what you've had. Like, you were very successful, so you had your own shows, you created shows, you created a business that created shows, you sold that business.
00:07:50:11 - 00:07:59:08
Unknown
So there's no doubt that you're you're learning to fit in and get out. Other people allowed you to be successful. What do you think it costs you?
00:07:59:10 - 00:08:22:03
Unknown
I think it cost me. Well, I mean, I I'll never know, I guess, in some ways, but I think it cost me the ability to do more of the type of work that I love as myself and to kind of show up as, as myself more publicly and more often. And who knows whether that would have been as successful or not as successful.
00:08:22:05 - 00:08:36:19
Unknown
But it's interesting at this stage of life, I don't have that same need or drive to be like, oh, I have to go out and figure out how to do all these things so that I'm safe when I get older or whatever it is.
00:08:36:21 - 00:08:53:07
Unknown
I also think the second half of life can be the best half of life, because we get to choose things, which is what you're doing, and you've chosen things because you want to do them as opposed to there's an expectation that you might or have to do them.
00:08:53:07 - 00:09:07:23
Unknown
Can I take you back to when you. When you sold your business and you said that you spent a year in the basement of your home trying to figure out what's next and try to almost fix it, like, try to figure out, okay, I've now done that.
00:09:07:23 - 00:09:17:21
Unknown
I need to go and achieve next. What is that take you back to some of those moments in the basement when you're sitting there literally in the dark, trying to figure that out?
00:09:17:21 - 00:09:42:07
Unknown
Yeah. So, this is the basement. I'm here. This is where. This is where I'm at right now. This is where I spent a long time. I knew that I was going to take a break. To kind of recover from my entrepreneurial journey when I left the podcasting company four years ago. And so, like everything else I've done in my life, I'm like, I'm going to nail this.
00:09:42:13 - 00:10:01:05
Unknown
I'm going to really be successful at this midlife thing. And so I read a whole bunch of books about all different aspects of it. And I think the most impactful one was this book called, transitions by a guy named William Bridges, which I love, that a guy named bridges wrote a book on transitions.
00:10:01:05 - 00:10:08:11
Unknown
But the biggest thing that I took away from the book was transitions are are not the same as everything else.
00:10:08:12 - 00:10:28:12
Unknown
Like, we're all conditioned to have, like, stories and all different aspects of our life being beginning, middle, end and transitions are end, middle, beginning. And everyone wants to skip over the middle and just go from the end straight to your new beginning. And I was like, I am not going to do that. He calls it the middle of the liminal state.
00:10:28:18 - 00:10:30:14
Unknown
I'm just like this void
00:10:30:16 - 00:10:31:17
Unknown
The messy middle?
00:10:31:23 - 00:10:33:03
Unknown
sit in the,
00:10:33:05 - 00:10:58:03
Unknown
liminal state and spend some real time just waiting and paying attention and being curious about yourself and not jumping into something too early in case you start repeating the same patterns and mistakes that you're trying to evolve out of. And I was like, I am going to crush this liminal
00:10:58:05 - 00:11:01:00
Unknown
wait, and I'm not going to rush out.
00:11:01:02 - 00:11:19:07
Unknown
And I spent most of it like reading and studying and journaling and whatever. And I'm like, in hindsight, I was like, you idiot. You were like, trying to achieve success at midlife or like, you know, fix midlife, which is exactly what you're not supposed to do. I was trying to like,
00:11:19:09 - 00:11:21:08
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:21:10 - 00:11:23:24
Unknown
actually go and enjoy it and and live
00:11:24:02 - 00:11:50:16
Unknown
It's an extraordinary, important thing. What you've just said that I always call it the messy middle. And so the liminal things that bridges talked about in your case, you know, you left the business. I bet your emails decreased dramatically, your phone calls dramatically, your watercooler conversations should be decreased dramatically. The number of problems that you were called in to fix weren't there, like all this stuff that you had built your identity around suddenly just disappeared.
00:11:50:20 - 00:12:08:02
Unknown
And then, okay, okay, let me now take care of my kids. Oh, they left home. They don't need me either. Who needs me? It's a really interesting phase of life that we go through, and there's nothing prepares you for it. Because you're so busy leading up to the moment that suddenly you're no longer busy
00:12:08:04 - 00:12:23:18
Unknown
Now appreciate financially not not everybody can go. I can take six weeks off or six months off for a year off. That's not possible for everybody, but what is possible for everybody. And this is what you've done that I love is you can run experiments that don't cost anything except time
00:12:23:18 - 00:12:29:07
Unknown
or lack of time depending. And you grew beard first, which we've heard about.
00:12:29:07 - 00:12:44:24
Unknown
But then you you took off all of your scoreboards. You took off your Apple Watch, you took off your aura ring, you took off Strava like you took off all the things that were holding you to account in almost kind of set you free in some senses.
00:12:45:01 - 00:13:10:06
Unknown
it was really interesting. Like, one of the things I, I've wanted to get to the bottom of is why am I so driven to keep moving forward or, you know, kind of this more and more and more or better and better and better or why am I always looking at myself, as you know, comparing myself to others on a scoreboard or whatever it is?
00:13:10:08 - 00:13:20:24
Unknown
And I realized that a bunch of stuff in my life was contributing to that, and I wasn't really fully aware of of what it was
00:13:21:01 - 00:13:37:06
Unknown
And so anyways, my, my friend and I started this Substack newsletter where we just decided we're going to do all sorts of experiments on our life for a year and see how much we can learn about midlife and how to navigate through it.
00:13:37:06 - 00:13:58:19
Unknown
And for me, it was one of those things being like, okay, let's try the things that I have an inkling about. This is a great opportunity to just try and have a small experiment to say, try it without those things and see if anything changes. And so I knew every morning I woke up and looked at my sleep score, or looked at my readiness score for my ring.
00:13:58:19 - 00:14:06:08
Unknown
And every day I was like, well, I better go for a walk around the block to close my rings
00:14:06:10 - 00:14:21:19
Unknown
And every time I posted something on Strava, which is, you know, for people who don't know, it's like Facebook for exercise, which I don't even know how dumb that sounds for other people, but, you're constantly being compared to other people.
00:14:21:19 - 00:14:43:22
Unknown
And if just other people posting, I did this route and here's how fast I did it. And here's my top times at biking or walking or running or whatever it is. And, I realized I these things don't really make me feel better. Like, I would wake up every morning and every single morning, my sleep score would be horrible.
00:14:43:24 - 00:15:02:12
Unknown
And I'd look at it and and it'd be like, you didn't get enough deep sleep. I'm like, I have tried every single thing you have suggested for me to get deep sleep. I'm never going to do this, and I don't want to keep waking up feeling miserable by looking at this scoreboard every day. That tells me I'm a failure before it's like five minutes into my day.
00:15:02:14 - 00:15:25:05
Unknown
So anyways, yeah, I took it all off and stopped it for a month. And that was January of this year and I have not put them back on at all. Like, it's been so liberating. I used to have like this huge watch tan and
00:15:25:07 - 00:15:29:05
Unknown
And how is your how is your sleep?
00:15:29:07 - 00:15:47:12
Unknown
on how I feel every day, you know, like, I kind of realized there's. I know these things. I know, and I've had a good sleep and a bad sleep. It doesn't. I don't need to turn into a number. To compare myself to others or myself or judge myself on it. How I slept is how I slept.
00:15:47:12 - 00:15:53:20
Unknown
I know what good sleep hygiene is supposed to be. There's nothing else to do. Yeah,
00:15:53:20 - 00:16:15:14
Unknown
I know there's a as a mantra over here. Here being Australia, if it's not on Strava you didn't do it which. Right. Right. So and and when I was using when I was doing a lot of training a couple of years ago and he used to get really fixated on, I forgot to do a Strava bugger. That means I didn't do the last ten kilometers of her own and he kind of go, hold on.
00:16:15:15 - 00:16:21:21
Unknown
I know I did it because I can feel that I've just done ten kilometers, but it's not on Strava. Oh
00:16:21:23 - 00:16:38:15
Unknown
Isn't that crazy when you when you actually realize that, like, I, I this is how bizarre was for me is so I same thing if it's not on Strava didn't happen and so I would record all these things. And one of the other experiments I did is I started running for the first time. I've never been a runner.
00:16:38:15 - 00:17:10:04
Unknown
I've always hated running like an asthma attack as a kid. But my wife loves running. And I was like, I'm going to try and see if I can like this thing that is supposed to be really good for you and have a shared activity with my wife. And so we started started running, and I put it on Strava, and I would realize that I would have to keep going until I hit like exactly five kilometers or whatever the number was, so that it would be something I could compare it to, or being like, that was my five k time.
00:17:10:05 - 00:17:37:00
Unknown
Like if I was 4.98, I would just keep running in a little loop I finished. I'm like, this is really not healthier. Normal. Like this is a bizarre behavior. This is driving and then I would see other people posting all these things, and I would just constantly feel bad about myself because I was so slow, you know, or just not not in the same league as these other people.
00:17:37:00 - 00:17:37:07
Unknown
And I'm
00:17:37:10 - 00:18:03:16
Unknown
give yourself a break. Like, you've never done this before. Like, like, you know, my my very first, running thing. I because I went from zero to like, trying to do longer distances and I, I talked to a trainer who's done like the world Ironman thing in Kona like an amazing guy. And he's like, just go around the block once, just jog around the block once, and then you can build on it from there.
00:18:03:16 - 00:18:22:00
Unknown
And so like I, I posted that on Strava, going around to block once with my wife and she's like, this is really this is not a good look. And you kind of realize that you're like, oh yeah, you really like these platforms really are like performative in a way. Right? And
00:18:22:02 - 00:18:26:20
Unknown
I think we can all look at the dashboards in our life that we pay attention to a lot.
00:18:26:22 - 00:18:50:15
Unknown
I mean, like, I didn't design this, someone else designed this. Why did they design it this way? Is it designed to get me to do certain behaviors over and over and over again? You know, one of which is probably go check your app and use your service every single day. And is it making me happier or not happier or making me feel better or worse about myself?
00:18:50:17 - 00:19:13:01
Unknown
It was it was like, shockingly liberating to get rid of all this stuff. As someone who, like, honestly has, like part of my Lego businessman achievement guy was the quantified self of just measure everything and optimize everything in the quest for doing all that stuff. And I could not be in a more different place today.
00:19:13:03 - 00:19:27:03
Unknown
some of your Substack articles. And I'm going to put a link in our notes to your Substack where people can read them because there's some really funny articles as well as really useful ones. But inspired by your stuff. I led 3 or 4 of my friends know, hey, look, I'm I'm trying to get fit again.
00:19:27:04 - 00:19:45:09
Unknown
It's been a while. I've got this plan. I'm getting my food sorted and getting my whole thing sorted. And three them go, oh, why don't you, like, walk together once a week? And so I now have these different in my diaries. Oh, this is the walk without end. This is the robot column. This is and it's been fantastic because to your point.
00:19:45:11 - 00:20:09:21
Unknown
And men don't tend to talk to each other unless they're doing something physical, like it's a side by side, shoulder by shoulder type activity, be a chopping wood or walking or whatever it is. But the conversations were having and the sharing were having is something I've forgotten about. It's been six years since I did any kind of training, so I'm, I'm I'm enjoying this social activity as much as I'm enjoying the getting out and physical activity.
00:20:09:23 - 00:20:11:04
Unknown
I love that you're having that too.
00:20:11:05 - 00:20:24:00
Unknown
That was really like one of the big surprises for me was how wonderful it was to do these things with other people. And yeah, the bonding and connection that comes out of doing, you know, hard things with other people like
00:20:24:02 - 00:20:25:15
Unknown
jump to a different experiment.
00:20:25:15 - 00:20:55:07
Unknown
Speaking of hard things with other people, ketamine, that's that's not something that a type a Lego business executive would typically explore, at least in public on on Substack. Yes. You've written three really cool articles about your experience over the this year. First, so let's start with the the basic stuff for someone who has heard of the word but doesn't quite know what that means, what is Academy and experience?
00:20:55:09 - 00:21:13:10
Unknown
So ketamine is a psychedelic drug. It's it's actually used in hospitals and it's been used in hospitals for a long, long time as a, you know, a for managing pain. Like if you snap a limb or something like that, you're probably going to get ketamine in the hospital. And it really is like
00:21:13:13 - 00:21:15:20
Unknown
quite a powerful it's a synthetic drug.
00:21:15:21 - 00:21:44:07
Unknown
It's very, very safe. It's been tested all over the place. But I think in the world of therapy, it is probably one of the safest, most predictable legal ways of having a psychedelic experience. That, paired with therapy, can provide you with some pretty interesting life insights and ways to work through things. And I have been such a straight arrow nerd my whole life.
00:21:44:07 - 00:21:45:11
Unknown
And this is, you know, part of the
00:21:45:13 - 00:21:51:09
Unknown
part of the fitting in Lego business. Like Lego businessmen, there's not do ketamine. So,
00:21:51:11 - 00:22:03:09
Unknown
but I've read all these things about how amazing the experience of doing some of these things are. You know, I read Michael Pollan's book How to Change Your Mind a number of years ago, and it was really impactful.
00:22:03:11 - 00:22:32:10
Unknown
And there's this, a famous psychologist named Gabor Mate. Doctor Gabor Mate who lives in Vancouver here. And I don't know, I've been a fan of his work, and he's talked a lot about the power of psychedelics, you know, as a, as a healing experience and for generating insights and things like that. And, when I started these experiments, they're like, I've never, ever had anything remotely close to an experience like that.
00:22:32:12 - 00:22:44:09
Unknown
And I'm so curious to see whether it would provide any insights for me. And am I really going to go through my entire life and never have the chance to have an experience like
00:22:44:11 - 00:22:53:15
Unknown
so I was like, I'm going to see if I can explore this. And my family goes on vacation every year to an island near Vancouver.
00:22:53:15 - 00:23:11:18
Unknown
And, I know that Gabor goes to this same island and I have this fantasy. I'm going to meet Gabor on this island, and he is going to help me do psychedelics. And, I mean, I have a psychedelic journey with Gabor, mate, and that's what's going to happen. And that's what I'm going to write about in the Substack and
00:23:11:20 - 00:23:31:06
Unknown
I'm on a ferry to this island, and there's a ferry line up, and the car door in front of me opens up, and he gets out of the car and it's like, this is a sign from the universe that this guy like this, I have to go talk to him. And, I sat in my car for like ten minutes and was just, like, trying to build up the courage to go talk to him because he's, like, a fairly
00:23:31:11 - 00:23:34:08
Unknown
He's well known. Yeah. He's well no. Yeah, yeah.
00:23:34:11 - 00:23:40:01
Unknown
and then I went up and knocked on his window and I was like, I'm sorry to bother you, but, like, I really wanted to
00:23:40:01 - 00:24:08:23
Unknown
talk to you about this midlife set of experiments I'm doing and doing psychedelics. And he's like, okay, I'm probably not your guy because I'm, you know, I'm more end of life than midlife. But call me and I'm going to set you up with some people. And so I, I called him, we had a great chat. He introduced me to a professor at the University of British Columbia here in Vancouver, who is an expert in psychedelic assistant therapy.
00:24:09:02 - 00:24:37:13
Unknown
He hooked me up with a clinic like ten minutes from my house that does this stuff. And that's, you know, doctors, you have to get medical approval to do it. Their doctor consultations about dosing their nurses present in the room. And it's not clinical. It's not like you're in a hospital. Like we're doing this stuff in a room called The Grove that is, like, filled with tree trunks and vines and cool music and all that sort of stuff.
00:24:37:13 - 00:24:55:20
Unknown
But, I, I, I can't believe I actually did it. Like, for such a square, the fact that I ended up like meeting Gabor and then ending up in a, in this clinic. Doing ketamine was. Yeah. In hindsight, quite shocking.
00:24:56:00 - 00:25:17:21
Unknown
I'm going to do my best job telling you what it was like, but I don't think you can actually describe it. But. So it's a needle. Because it's a fairly high dose and it goes into your deltoid and your bicep there, and you put on like an eye mask and headphones, and within a minute.
00:25:17:23 - 00:26:02:01
Unknown
It is just like someone has just unplugged your body. You know, I kind of think of it like, like an HDMI cord like that. You're, you know, like a television set or something like that, where someone is, like, unplugged my body and taken a feed of other visuals and audio and feelings of motion and just plug that into your brain stem and you're fully conscious, like, like you're 100% conscious, but you don't have a body and you're not really thinking, and you're having all these experiences, and it's this, you know, when you talk about, you know, mindfulness or meditation about like just being present and in the moment, you don't really have an option
00:26:02:03 - 00:26:22:16
Unknown
to do anything other than that. And it's just pure presence, and you have no control whatsoever over what's happening. And I don't know it. It was it was really just like something I've I've never even remotely dreamt of what that experience could have been
00:26:22:18 - 00:26:33:19
Unknown
What you did very, very differently though, is you had, some counseling for one of the counters in between those sessions and you've written about this and stuff, and I thought this was fantastic.
00:26:33:19 - 00:26:46:03
Unknown
He said, after one of your experiences, the council said to you, you don't need to do anything. There's nothing for you to fix any more. You are done. What was that and how did that land for you?
00:26:46:03 - 00:27:00:03
Unknown
I went through all this stuff, trying to figure out what these things meant for me. And there's a whole bunch. But, you know, and honestly, a lot of the stuff we've talked about today, as has been part of that as well. So
00:27:00:07 - 00:27:24:05
Unknown
That was kind of my midlife journey of like the death of all those parts of my identity and kind of getting decay and then some rebirth and reconnecting, kind of going down belief beneath those layers of societal conditioning and things that I stacked up. You know, the Lego businessman was in there fitting in achievement, all that was all these layers to go down.
00:27:24:10 - 00:27:52:10
Unknown
when I said like, okay, so now that we're there, like, now, what should I do? What do I do next? And she's like, nothing. You're you're done. Like, you can you can relax now. And I realized yet again that I was trying I tried to be like, okay, well, I'm just going to keep excavating forever because this is what I do is I, I'm trying to be successful at, like, figuring everything out and solving every problem and, you know, controlling this stuff.
00:27:52:10 - 00:28:16:13
Unknown
And she's like, no, no, you don't have to do that anymore. Like, you can actually you can actually just go start living your life now. You don't need to. There's nothing else you need to know. You've got all you need to know. That was just like a huge weight off my shoulders, you know? And the whole theme of this conversation, in a way, is all these weights we put on our shoulders are artificial in some ways, right?
00:28:16:14 - 00:28:33:22
Unknown
Like you can just go live your life like you don't have to fix everything. You don't have to control everything. You don't have to win everything. You have to figure out why or solve every problem. You should probably spend a lot of your time going out and living your life and enjoying it to.
00:28:33:22 - 00:28:50:00
Unknown
you've got a daughter, Cedar, 23 years of age, and you and she did a comedy course together, a showcase where you learned how to be funny, and then you put on a show. And as I understand it, she was far, far funnier than you were.
00:28:50:04 - 00:29:16:09
Unknown
Yes it was. Honestly, it's probably my most heartwarming and magical parenting experience I've had in a long time. And, you know, we talked about this piece around, you know, the kind of the morning of, the loss of a parenting identity when that phase of life is over. I really wasn't sure whether I was going to have a lot of moments of deep connection with my kids.
00:29:16:11 - 00:29:48:21
Unknown
And I used to love doing comedy, and I had some, you know, career experiences that discouraged me from doing that. And one of my things is like, you know what? I want to see if I can do this because I really enjoy doing it. And if I'm just a dad doing dumb dad stuff, so be it. But like, I, I, I want to do this and my daughter is really funny and she's greatly enjoyed stand up, like watching stand up comedy and sketch comedy and things like that.
00:29:48:23 - 00:30:07:17
Unknown
And it's like, do you want to go do this course together? And she was like, sure. And we were both terrified. Like we went down, you know, you actually have to go get up on stage and your first time there and it ends in a public showcase. There's like 75 people in this room, and you go up and do five minutes of stand up.
00:30:07:19 - 00:30:30:18
Unknown
And I remember being so nervous. She went on before I did, and I was so nervous for her as a parent because it's like a really it's a really vulnerable thing. I mean, you get up on stage and if you don't, if people don't laugh, you know it instantly. And, you know, we talked about creativity for hire versus personal creativity.
00:30:30:20 - 00:30:51:13
Unknown
One of the risks of doing personal creativity is like, if people don't like it, it's kind of an expression of yourself and it hurts. And so I was, you know, as a proud parent, I was just very nervous. I had no reason to be nervous. Like, she just killed it. She just absolutely killed it and was, like, very comfortable on stage.
00:30:51:13 - 00:31:12:00
Unknown
And the crowd was howling and the teacher, like, she added a few things into before live performance. And the teachers are like like, oh my God, that was amazing. And so then, you know, a couple times, a couple turns later was for me to go up and I was like, I feel so much better because, like, she's already killed it.
00:31:12:00 - 00:31:32:05
Unknown
And I it went great for me. But like, it was really clear she's the funnier one of the group. And I couldn't have been more proud like it was a it was. So it's funny like interesting timing. Next week we're doing it again. There's like a level two of going up. So we're we're doing the whole thing again because it was such a great experience.
00:31:32:05 - 00:31:54:18
Unknown
you know, you know, what I love about that is it's and you set it up front. There's something beautiful as a parent watching your child A succeed, but B as stuff that they're better than you are and you see them becoming them and they're no longer in need of your help and support to the degree they used to.
00:31:54:19 - 00:32:07:20
Unknown
Clearly they want your support. And but seeing them kind of create their own life in their way and, and be good at it and they have fun with this. That's probably the biggest joy being a parent really.
00:32:07:22 - 00:32:33:07
Unknown
you know, it's interesting for me because of all this stuff that I've been wrestling with around putting on the Lego businessman suit and abandoning some of my creative stuff, seeing her at this age go up and have such a positive experience, being a creative and being funny, it it was almost like extra impactful. I like it really was like, okay, don't you ever put on your Lego businesswoman suit?
00:32:33:09 - 00:32:38:00
Unknown
Speaking of parents, Steve, who is Courtney Pratt?
00:32:38:02 - 00:33:04:15
Unknown
Is it because I watched a rather your latest post where you're summarizing the whole year? And I had a big laugh because I remember you and I just had a chat a few months ago about when you turned your phone off for, I think it was 5 or 6 weeks as one of your experiments. But of course, the phone is not just messaging, it's also a way to play family games such as Wordle on the New York Times or whatever the game is.
00:33:04:17 - 00:33:08:03
Unknown
What was your dad's reaction to when you came back into the group?
00:33:08:06 - 00:33:30:16
Unknown
Well, he was out. He was outraged that I left Wordle. So I, so I this is one of the other things I was like, you know what? My phone is really not a good thing in my life. I know this is one of the things that I should have stopped or managed more, but I also know that all these things are designed by tech companies to keep driving us back, to use these things over and over and over and over again.
00:33:30:18 - 00:34:05:12
Unknown
And it's almost like the Gabor thing. I got introduced to this woman named Emmy, who has a course that she was just launching of, like a detox from your phone and fight your phone and get off of it and delete all these apps for a month. And it was so good. Like it was so good. But part of it was I had to end this huge Wordle streak that I was on, and our family has a chat every day where we all post our results and then post some stupid cryptic clue about what the answer is.
00:34:05:13 - 00:34:24:10
Unknown
And you can only read the clues after you've solved it, and you just kind of get like, almost like a rating or approval from everybody else. Like, was that a funny clue or not? And so I was like, I'm leaving the Wordle chat for a month. And my, my dad was just like, why are you doing this? Why would you do this to all of us?
00:34:24:10 - 00:34:48:18
Unknown
You're going to ruin the world chat. And, and it did. It actually went silent. Like, I like like people stopped posting in the world, chat kind of died, and I had I had no qualms about, like, leaving LinkedIn. Like I had a dysfunctional relationship with LinkedIn also of like comparing yourself to others and feeling like, well, look what all of them are doing.
00:34:48:18 - 00:35:13:06
Unknown
I better, you know, be Lego businessman, better get back into action or whatever. All of those things I was just, like, fundamentally shifted my relationship with those things by taking a break for a month. Highly recommend it. But I decided to come back to Wordle because it was important as a place for our family to get together and do something silly every single day.
00:35:13:06 - 00:35:33:00
Unknown
And I realized that's that's actually what I'm here for. And so I trumpet my return. I'm like, guess who's back? Steve is back, you know, or whatever it is. And my dad's like, back as a loser.
00:35:33:02 - 00:35:38:04
Unknown
Yeah, that's the parent proud of the child succeeding.
00:35:38:06 - 00:35:58:18
Unknown
But at the same. By the same token, your dad read all of your articles that you posted, and I think I think you had proofread them before you posted, including all the ketamine ones and all of the experiments. How how was that for both of you in terms of him watching you do things that you'd never done before and then being very public about it.
00:35:58:22 - 00:36:22:20
Unknown
Well it's interesting, like, for certain things, like, I think he was nervous about me doing ketamine, just as a parent. And he was nervous about me writing about doing ketamine in case it changed the way people thought about me or my reputation or any of those sorts of things. Like, I can totally relate to that. I can 100% relate to that as a parent for my own kids.
00:36:22:22 - 00:36:38:05
Unknown
But then when I showed him the drafts of what I actually went through and what I got out of it, he was like, oh, I totally get it now. Like, you know, now I get it. And this is actually very, very helpful, understanding what it's like and, and why you did it and what you got out of it.
00:36:38:05 - 00:37:11:13
Unknown
So it's almost been this way of, like I, you know, you've read the, the Substack stuff like, it's not it's not clinical. Like it's pretty vulnerable and personal and hopefully, you know, funny and entertaining of it. Like it's really a personal journey piece. And so I think he's really kind of come to understand a lot of the stuff that I've been going through more deeply in a way that he might not have if he hadn't been my proofreader in a bunch of it, and so open up a lot of really good conversations for us as well.
00:37:11:15 - 00:37:38:04
Unknown
I think one of the interesting ones, he was quite concerned when I left the podcasting company that I was like kind of in my peak achievement years, and that people were going to forget about me or that I was going to be miserable if I didn't get back to doing something relatively quickly. And we had a chat, a little while ago now.
00:37:38:04 - 00:37:59:21
Unknown
But I said, you know, like, I appreciate like, I know why you're worried about that, and I but I just want to assure you, I'm, I think I'm good and I want to do more creative stuff. Like, that's actually the stuff that I'm here for and here's why I want to do it. And I explained all this stuff and it couldn't have gone any better.
00:37:59:21 - 00:38:17:12
Unknown
Like, they're so wonderful and understanding both my parents and they were just like, oh yeah, okay, well this is really helpful and we get it. And thanks for sharing all this. And like of course we're going to support you for all of it. So I know it's been, I guess, writing about all this stuff publicly and having them part of it.
00:38:17:14 - 00:38:19:21
Unknown
Has been really good for our relationship
00:38:19:23 - 00:38:42:13
Unknown
There's something very validating and liberating at any stage of life, but I think particularly in midlife, because our relationship with our parents are changing and eventually becomes full circle and we help take care of them. But I remember having a conversation with my dad, and I was I think I was I'm going to say 44 or 45. So like ten years ago or so about something.
00:38:42:14 - 00:39:04:17
Unknown
And he said something to me that was the most unexpected and most helpful thing he could possibly have said, which was something like, I'm encouraging you to do what you're talking about, because I could never have done that, and I still regret it. And it was it was phenomenal. My dad wasn't someone who said a lot like he was a big listener.
00:39:04:19 - 00:39:23:08
Unknown
And he and I often wondered, does he actually know what's going on in our lives? He clearly did. I just didn't know that. But I still think back to the combat and going, he gave me permission to to jump off that diving board that was about to jump off. And I was really scared about it. And he's coming up, I really want you to do because I would never have done it.
00:39:23:08 - 00:39:28:22
Unknown
And I regret it was powerful. So it sounds like your dad's been supportive of you in a similar way.
00:39:28:24 - 00:39:53:05
Unknown
Yeah. Isn't it interesting too? Because the assumption that we might all have is they might not be like, because I'm going to do something that's a little bit risky or that that's not on that path that society tells you to go on to do it, or that you might be introducing risk into your life, that, you know, everybody just wants the best for their kid.
00:39:53:05 - 00:40:08:08
Unknown
They want them to be safe and secure and all those sorts of things. So to have that message of support from a parent, it again, it's just like it's really liberating. And, you know, kind of inspiring to be like, okay, great. I, I am going to go do the stuff that I'm wired to
00:40:08:12 - 00:40:28:19
Unknown
much do you reckon all these experiments cost you? And what I mean by that is going back to my comment area that, you know, for a lot of people, taking six months a year off is just not possible. But what I think you've done is you ran a whole lot of things that you've clearly loved and benefited from, but physically, financially, how much did it cost you?
00:40:28:21 - 00:40:51:03
Unknown
Most of it was not much, to be honest. I mean, like, there's so many things anybody could just start doing tomorrow, like the ketamine, not free, like the ketamine. You know, I went fully through a very legal process, and I have worked with professionals, with therapists, all those sorts of things so that, you know, not cheap. But I don't regret it for a second.
00:40:51:09 - 00:41:16:21
Unknown
But, I mean, the cost to enter a running race is next to nothing. The cost to put on a pair of shoes and go at your door, nothing to get rid of. Wearables to stop using social media. You know, I stand up course costs money again. Totally like the best money I've ever spent. I could probably, you know, offset it.
00:41:16:24 - 00:41:44:12
Unknown
One of the things we hadn't talked about is I also did an entire year with no alcohol, which is a very big lifestyle change. I saved a ton of money. I have a ton of money not drinking too. So I think it all worked out. Something where it's like almost all this stuff. Again, we all know the stuff that we probably should be doing, the hard or uncomfortable stuff or the things we're avoiding.
00:41:44:14 - 00:41:49:09
Unknown
Just doing those things. That's that's the hard part. I think the expensive part is not doing
00:41:49:12 - 00:42:10:24
Unknown
have a word that comes to my mind when I think of you. A year after I met you first, and after reading about all these experiments and and and chatting to you over the course of the year. But before I share that word with you, what word or what phrase would you use to describe yourself? Now, on the other side of this year of experiments?
00:42:11:01 - 00:42:34:11
Unknown
Oh, that's a good question. You know what? This is a weird one. I'm just going to say it's like Steve, like I feel like I'm actually myself. Whereas and I'm so curious what you're going to say, because I feel like when you and I first met, we were introduced because I was the podcast guy. Right? And this midlife stuff hadn't really started yet.
00:42:34:11 - 00:42:49:02
Unknown
But like you and I. The reason you and I are met is kind of because of my old identity thing, and I feel like I'm very curious to hear what your word is or what you think of me now. I mean, we're still talking, so I guess it's a good sign, but
00:42:49:02 - 00:43:13:08
Unknown
Well, the word, the word I have is free. You strike me as someone who's free. You strike me as someone who's completely, in a not not permitting, instead of joy. But you're tipping into a state of joy in a regular basis. You're someone who is having fun. Like, every time I talk to you, you know, you're doing something fun or you're sharing your story.
00:43:13:10 - 00:43:37:07
Unknown
That I laugh at, and, you know, from my point of view, and I know you and I've discussed this wasn't twice. You. You've inspired me to do a few things along the way. Like. Like when you told me about the comedy course with your daughter. Well, this is very, very different. It was the back of my mind when I asked my son, usher, who you've met, to train with me to physically train with me, and he and I having a lot of fun with that.
00:43:37:07 - 00:43:47:24
Unknown
Not necessarily in the middle of farmers carries or rowing or running, running around the rugby pitch. But but we are having fun with it. And so when I think about you, the word freedom comes to mind.
00:43:48:01 - 00:43:48:18
Unknown
I love that.
00:43:48:18 - 00:43:54:23
Unknown
That's that means a lot hearing that, like, I, I don't know if I can tell you how much I appreciate that, but that's
00:43:55:00 - 00:44:19:12
Unknown
I think the reason why the word comes to my mind is I often think that midlife, if we let it and you said this already, it strips us back to our core, like it really allows us to let go of stuff or to no longer strive to achieve because we've either achieve what we wanted or we just don't need to any longer or don't want to, etc. and if you, if you, if you allow it to, would you have or be the first few months you would try hard not to.
00:44:19:13 - 00:44:33:19
Unknown
You're trying to achieve the messy middle as optimally as you could, but if you allow yourself to do the experiments, you end up being who you truly are. Or at least a version of that which means you're free, which is kind of cool.
00:44:33:21 - 00:44:40:11
Unknown
Man. It's, it's it's like a really, really rewarding thing. And I, you know, the only thing I, I have to say
00:44:40:13 - 00:44:52:05
Unknown
and this is going to sound like I'm like the fixer achiever guy saying this again, but like, it was hard. Like it was it was harder than I thought. Figuring out who I am and what I really wanted to do right now.
00:44:52:07 - 00:45:20:06
Unknown
That stripping everything down was quite uncomfortable. But I can say, you know, I don't know if I'm fully on the other side, but I feel like I'm certainly, like, very much trending in the right direction on it. It does feel liberating. Like, it it it feels like, oh, these are things that I'm choosing and I'm paying attention to how they make me feel when I do these things and stacking more of those things.
00:45:20:08 - 00:45:29:19
Unknown
And I'm like, I'm actually. Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of living a lot of the things that I'm, that I want to do. And it that's, I feel very, very
00:45:29:24 - 00:45:37:01
Unknown
Right? So I'm going to put you on the spot now after your experiments, give me one experiment that I can start tomorrow.
00:45:37:03 - 00:46:06:06
Unknown
I would say look at the things that you check every single day or on a regular basis that have some sort of number or score on them and ask yourself, who designed this? Why did they design it? And is this for my benefit or theirs? And you could just do these things again, like much like the tiny habit thing, just do it for like a week and just stop it.
00:46:06:07 - 00:46:26:24
Unknown
Like break a streak of something you've been on a streak for. Break the streak and and don't go back to it for a week and just see what happens. Streaks are really weird psychological design thing. Like, you think about how many products we have that are designed with streaks or things that are like, come back every single day.
00:46:27:01 - 00:46:52:16
Unknown
It's by design. And it's not our choosing. And it does hook us. It's it's probably the easiest one I could think of is just break a streak and don't go back for a week and see what happens. But, you know, you could choose anything. You could, you know, just start small and don't have a drink tonight or don't have a drink for a week or go walk around the block.
00:46:52:18 - 00:46:58:01
Unknown
I don't know. I, I've been I've been really shocked at how powerful these experiments are,
00:46:58:03 - 00:47:22:19
Unknown
and then, you know, the other piece that's been, you know, even just the fact that, I don't know, I'm curious whether the podcast functions the same way for you, but the Substack, for me, has been this really wonderful kind of commitment device to kind of force me to do some of these hard things because I've said publicly, I'm, I'm doing these experiments and I'm going to try and figure a bunch of stuff out, and I'm going to write about it.
00:47:22:21 - 00:47:43:09
Unknown
At some point you're like, well, I guess I kind of have to do this stuff now. And that's been a real gift as well. So whether it's, you know, telling the entire internet, but it could also just be like telling your friend or telling your spouse or going out and doing something with your friend together so that you're kind of accountable for it.
00:47:43:11 - 00:47:52:21
Unknown
I know this is not new in this like habit science, but it is very effective for kind of getting my butt to actually do the things that I might not have done
00:47:52:21 - 00:48:09:07
Unknown
I forget occasionally what I say at this podcast, and then I'm reminded if I bump into someone says, oh, I heard you say this. How's that going for you? Like, I, I was in Melbourne last week and someone said to me, I heard you say you've just started training for hierarchies. How far did I announce that I was okay?
00:48:09:12 - 00:48:21:12
Unknown
I did actually, and I'm 11 weeks away from the event and I'm doing this and and suddenly I as soon as they asked me that, I thought, okay, is my training on track? Am I doing what I said I would do? Very, very powerful. Yeah. So I love that.
00:48:21:12 - 00:48:26:16
Unknown
the fact you're doing it with your son. It's like, how great is that? There's another commitment device. It's like you're doing it
00:48:26:18 - 00:48:27:21
Unknown
Yes.
00:48:27:23 - 00:48:30:08
Unknown
Yeah. It's I think it's you're doing all the right stuff.
00:48:30:08 - 00:48:46:14
Unknown
and a bit like your daughter. He's far better than me at this. So yeah, I won't say I'm looking at pride yet. It's more jealousy at the moment, but it's okay. Steve Pratt, it's been a fantastic conversation. I love having you on here. I love chatting to you. I love reading your books and your sub stacks.
00:48:46:19 - 00:49:04:12
Unknown
We will, we will post them in our notes so other people can find you and laugh out loud as much as I do whenever I read your your stuff or whenever you post what your dad has said about you, appreciate it. I got one last question for you. Given everything you know now, give anything you've been done both in Europe.
00:49:04:14 - 00:49:17:15
Unknown
Lego man business career, but also in your post Lego man ketamine influenced the lack of iPhone influence career. What would you want to tell the 25 year old version of you now, assuming he'd listened to you?
00:49:17:17 - 00:49:51:08
Unknown
I think I would tell that 25 year old. Not everything you think matters really matters that much. In the grand scheme of things like it's go be yourself, pay attention to who you want to, who you want to be, and the things you want to do and do them. Because life is shorter than you expect in the grand scheme of things like nothing really matters, so you may as well just do the things that you that you want.
00:49:51:10 - 00:50:03:21
Unknown
And it's all going to work out like it's all going to work out. Just go, you know, like a little bit of just like you do you, it's just like a I would give some version of the thing that our fathers have both given to us, to my 25 year old
00:50:03:21 - 00:50:12:00
Unknown
Brilliant. Well, I appreciate that you're not letting the old man in, and you're you're writing all about how you're doing that. Steve Pratt. Thank you.
00:50:12:02 - 00:50:21:14
Unknown
Thank you. I, I love talking about all this midlife stuff with you. Like, and I thank you for making the podcast and for sharing all the smart stuff about it that you're doing, too. It's, it's always a treat to get to talk to you, too. Pod.
