You already have more power to make a stranger's day than you think.
If you keep your head down on the train, swallow a compliment you wanted to give, or decide you're just not that kind of person, this one's for you.
Nicholas Epley is a professor of behavioural science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and the author of A Little More Social. Fifteen years ago, on his commute, he tested what happens when you talk to the stranger beside you instead of staying quiet, and it reshaped his career.
He is not asking you to get louder. His research shows personality barely matters: introverts enjoy it as much as anyone else once they are in it. The real block is not who you are, it is a belief about how the other person will react, and that belief is usually wrong.
His own rule, after fifteen years of testing it: when in doubt, reach out.
Top Moments
Meet the Guest
Nicholas Epley
Nicholas Epley is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, where he also directs the Roman Family Center for Decision Research. His research looks at social cognition and perspective-taking, in particular why people so reliably misjudge how well it will go when they reach out to someone else, including a stranger.
He is the author of Mindwise: How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want (2014) and the new book A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection. His work has won the Theoretical Innovation Award from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology and the American Psychological Association's Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution to Psychology, and the Financial Times has named him a professor to watch.
He lives in the Chicago area with his wife and five children, including his daughter Lindsey, adopted from China, whose total lack of social filter he describes simply as a beautiful thing to watch.
-
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:03:00
Unknown
are you someone who avoids talking to strangers?
00:00:03:01 - 00:00:07:15
Unknown
Or you keep your head down when you're on the train or bus and no one catches your eye?
00:00:07:20 - 00:00:11:24
Unknown
I guess today shares what? It's why that might be exactly the wrong thing to do.
00:00:11:24 - 00:00:14:20
Unknown
If happiness is something you're looking for in your life.
00:00:14:20 - 00:00:20:09
Unknown
Nicholas Epley is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business.
00:00:20:11 - 00:00:23:00
Unknown
his new book is called A Little More Social.
00:00:23:06 - 00:00:31:00
Unknown
today explains to us why there's no difference between introversion and extroversion when it comes to social connection.
00:00:31:00 - 00:00:34:08
Unknown
tells us why men should never be scared of talking to strangers,
00:00:34:11 - 00:00:39:06
Unknown
why making friends in midlife might be a lot easier than we might think.
00:00:39:09 - 00:00:52:07
Unknown
I'm part of Sullivan. I'm the host of donut, the old man, and I firmly believe that the second half of life can be the best half of life if we choose it. And I'm on a mission to find out exactly how.
00:00:52:09 - 00:00:55:01
Unknown
connection isn't something that just happens to
00:00:55:03 - 00:00:56:03
Unknown
It's something we often
00:00:56:03 - 00:00:57:00
Unknown
and or choose to
00:00:57:03 - 00:01:00:14
Unknown
Nick Epperly, welcome to Dawn at the Old Man in. Really excited to see you.
00:01:00:18 - 00:01:02:14
Unknown
Thanks for having me here. I appreciate it.
00:01:02:14 - 00:01:16:04
Unknown
You're welcome. I been looking forward to our conversation since your book first came out. For folks who haven't read your book or maybe haven't come across your work, what are our listeners going to get from our conversation today? And more importantly, what can they learn that will really benefit them?
00:01:16:04 - 00:01:34:09
Unknown
I think they're going to leave feeling a little empowered. At least I hope so. That's really the message, I think, that I've taken from our research. And it's not something we are intending to do or anything. We're trying to figure out what's true. But I think the truth that we're finding about social interaction has the consequence of being empowering.
00:01:34:09 - 00:01:50:21
Unknown
What we've been interested in, what I've been interested in, is setting for the last 15 or 20 years, is trying to figure out why is it if social connection is so darn good for us? Why do we so often seem to be choosing to avoid
00:01:50:23 - 00:01:58:22
Unknown
And one of the hypotheses we've been testing is that we misunderstand how well things will go when we reach out to connect with other people.
00:01:58:22 - 00:02:16:14
Unknown
And we've we've just learned that, that we have more power in general than you. Then people might imagine they have to to create connection by choosing to reach out and try. And I have found that to be empowering in my in my own life. I hope the listeners today are find the same.
00:02:16:16 - 00:02:33:01
Unknown
Well, it's someone who has a habit of speaking to random taxi drivers and ended up having many conversations over the years, which I'm sure we'll dive into. I can completely understand why you believe it's. And I do know I've had the most random conversations all over the world. Absolutely.
00:02:33:05 - 00:02:35:01
Unknown
did you stumble into this research
00:02:35:03 - 00:02:40:00
Unknown
and what what have you changed your mind about as a result of spending 15 years in this space?
00:02:40:00 - 00:02:59:19
Unknown
So it's kind of it's a it's sort of a long story. And I got into grad school, graduate school in social psychology with researchers who were studying social cognition, how thinking people think about other thinking people, and mostly trying to figure out how we might sometimes think incorrectly about each other or misunderstand each other.
00:02:59:19 - 00:03:19:24
Unknown
And, and, and, but, you know, it wasn't until maybe 15 or so years ago after I maybe, maybe 10 or 15 years after I started my career, that I kind of had a eureka moment on a train ride one morning on my way in, where I thought I might be seeing a case of misunderstanding that that potentially producing a lot of harm.
00:03:19:24 - 00:03:34:08
Unknown
And this was sitting on the train, that I ride in every day to my office here at the University of Chicago, which is just to the just to the east of me, a few blocks from where I'm sitting right now in my office. And I was sitting on that train one morning.
00:03:34:12 - 00:03:36:16
Unknown
And, and I kind of had this eureka moment.
00:03:36:16 - 00:03:59:01
Unknown
I like, looked at it with a, with a lens. I had never looked at it before. I'd ridden the train for many years. But that morning I was writing a chapter from my first book titled. Mine was describing how we have this unique capacity on the planet to think about the minds of others, but it works imperfectly. But I was writing a chapter on on the importance of social connection for our well-being, on our health.
00:03:59:01 - 00:04:12:15
Unknown
And yet I was I looked, looked around, and I had this moment where I was like, startled by noticing that we have all these highly social animals on this train us. And nobody was
00:04:12:17 - 00:04:13:02
Unknown
Yes.
00:04:13:03 - 00:04:20:04
Unknown
I and I thought, does, you know, like, does this make sense what we're all doing with each other here alone together.
00:04:20:04 - 00:04:38:07
Unknown
And it could make sense. I mean, maybe talking to strangers on the plane, you know, on a train does stink. Maybe it is unpleasant. Or connecting with friends and family is good, but stranger, maybe. Maybe we're right about that. But I also thought maybe we're we're wrong about that. And I had a I had a conversation that morning on the train, remember, I thought I would test this.
00:04:38:07 - 00:05:04:16
Unknown
Well, what happens if I just do this right? This woman sat down next to me wearing this fabulous red hat that I'll never forget. And I decided to have a conversation with her. I was nervous about it beforehand, but it went wonderfully. It went really, really well. The 30 minute commute was over in a flash. Of course, not every conversation goes well, but I was startled by how well that went, how much better that went than I imagined it might have at the beginning.
00:05:04:18 - 00:05:15:07
Unknown
And it was really that morning on the train that just really, you know, opened the floodgates and got me going in this line of work with with wonderful collaborators and colleagues.
00:05:15:07 - 00:05:27:11
Unknown
I think you said something really unusual to her. You said I loved your hat. I've got one of those two or something like that. So. No. No wonder she talked to you back.
00:05:27:13 - 00:05:27:17
Unknown
You
00:05:27:17 - 00:05:29:07
Unknown
say in your book, you said
00:05:29:09 - 00:05:40:06
Unknown
you can see the importance of social needs in our newer architecture, where the drive to connect with others relies on the same reward structures as the drive to eat, sleep, or have sex.
00:05:40:08 - 00:06:04:07
Unknown
Your brain signal for craving friends is the same as a signal for craving food. And that's that's a that's an extraordinary statement. And your your thesis is that we're all better off by interacting with others and including strangers. That's what the question I have for me is why it's so connection, so important. Like, it seems to be a really basic need based upon what you say here in this opening chapter.
00:06:04:09 - 00:06:07:07
Unknown
yeah.
00:06:07:09 - 00:06:28:22
Unknown
Why is it so important? It's there are a few things. So there's so for most of human history today, we as a highly social species got along and got ahead and succeeded in our lives by connecting well with other people. And so, you know, just like we needed to eat and sleep in order to survive, we needed other people, too.
00:06:28:22 - 00:06:49:02
Unknown
And whenever you have a survival feature like that, you know, in in your life, it's a good bet that your brain's going to kind of build some signals into it that tell you this is a good thing, keep doing it. Right. So there's that. But that doesn't explain why a social connection for good for us, so good for us.
00:06:49:04 - 00:06:53:13
Unknown
One is we get help from other people. We get support from other people.
00:06:53:13 - 00:07:11:12
Unknown
You just, functionally speaking, live better when other people around you, you get help and you get assistant. You also get you learn a lot about yourself. You get some self validation from having, being connected, having other people around. And so, it's critical for success.
00:07:11:12 - 00:07:16:02
Unknown
And our brain tells us when we're connecting with other people, that's a good thing. Try doing that more.
00:07:16:02 - 00:07:39:00
Unknown
Ahead of our conversation, I was chatting to a few folks here in the office and a few of my friends and or for your listeners, and I'm saying we've got Nick coming on. He's all about social connection. What are your immediate thoughts to that? And the word judgment kept coming up in terms of my judging people. And therefore that's one of the reasons why I don't get involved or indeed do I feel judged.
00:07:39:01 - 00:07:43:14
Unknown
And therefore I just kind of back, back. And I know this is a big part of your thesis.
00:07:43:14 - 00:07:51:17
Unknown
After we filter out for, say, stereotypes, the view of these kind of people do this. And then therefore I, you know, I have a view on that.
00:07:51:19 - 00:07:57:10
Unknown
Do we judge people on their behaviors or do we do we have the ability to think and go?
00:07:57:12 - 00:08:07:15
Unknown
I wonder what their intention was as opposed to their behavior, because I believe we judge ourselves and our intention, but we judge most people based upon what we see in their behaviors.
00:08:07:15 - 00:08:08:00
Unknown
yeah.
00:08:08:00 - 00:08:29:05
Unknown
So that that is a well-established empirical fact. That one right there, we tend to think about our own intentions because we have intentions. We can feel our intentions. I, I have to guess at your intentions. Right. And I tend to work backwards from your behavior to it, but, but yeah, we look we look to what other people are doing and can can at times use that as a guide to their thoughts or beliefs or attitudes or intentions.
00:08:29:05 - 00:08:35:01
Unknown
So, you know, I sit down on a train and somebody sits down next to me and they're not talking to me.
00:08:35:07 - 00:08:50:03
Unknown
I can very quickly and easily assume that their thoughts are corresponding with their action. They don't want to talk to me, right. And then it's easy to think, well, you know, if they don't want to talk to me, I don't want to be rude, right?
00:08:50:03 - 00:09:11:13
Unknown
I don't I don't want to be impolite to I don't want to cross any boundaries. Maybe they're tired, right. And so I keep to myself. And yes, that kind of judgment undergirds all of the expectations that we study in our work that holds people back, sometimes mistakenly, from reaching out and connecting with other people. Absolutely.
00:09:11:13 - 00:09:31:20
Unknown
I know we will do a deep dive into the notion of choice soon because choice and expectations. But I do wonder about the word politeness in terms of how does judgments show up in different cultures. Because I would say I'm Irish. I lived in England for a long time now. I live in Australia. They're similar cultures, but they're also very different cultures in many ways.
00:09:31:20 - 00:09:37:20
Unknown
And I would suggest that English cultures got a politeness lens to it that doesn't show up in Australia as an example.
00:09:38:00 - 00:09:47:10
Unknown
you see any kind of cross-cultural senses of what politeness might mean that may influence whether I'm judging others, or I'm just letting them be?
00:09:47:12 - 00:10:07:09
Unknown
Yeah. There has to be to some extent I've been surprised at how hard it is to, to find it in some ways. We've just started a little bit to do this work. So we, we were handsome experiments in China. We find the same kinds of gaps between expectations and experience and shallow and deep conversations.
00:10:07:10 - 00:10:15:08
Unknown
where we've looked at it most is not across cultures, but within culture, across people in terms of personality.
00:10:15:10 - 00:10:34:19
Unknown
Right? So, you know, there's extroversion and there's neuroticism or emotional stability differences across people. And here what we find is that people's expectations, if anything, about how social interactions will turn out are better predicted by these personality traits and their experiences actually
00:10:34:23 - 00:10:47:04
Unknown
So introverts think they might enjoy interacting with somebody a little less than extroverts do, but when you actually put them in the conversation, they tend to enjoy it more similarly than their expectations would beforehand.
00:10:47:04 - 00:11:10:16
Unknown
So my bet my prediction is that when there is cross-cultural variability, which of course there is, they're quote unquote friendlier places, right? So Spain is a good example. Maybe Australia, right, where people tend to talk to strangers, maybe a little bit more and, you know, more polite cultures where people talk to strangers less like Japan is an example.
00:11:10:18 - 00:11:30:16
Unknown
But and so I would expect that what's going to vary across cultures are more people's beliefs about social interaction their actual than their actual experience is not that Australians like talking to people more than the Japanese do, it's that they think it'll go better and therefore choose to do it more often.
00:11:30:16 - 00:11:35:20
Unknown
But we have. That's a hypothesis that is not something that we we have confirmed yet.
00:11:35:20 - 00:11:40:03
Unknown
It's hard to do that kind of cross-cultural research. So that's coming next.
00:11:40:03 - 00:11:40:13
Unknown
Okay.
00:11:40:13 - 00:11:44:15
Unknown
That'll be my next book in another 15
00:11:44:17 - 00:11:55:14
Unknown
talk about rejection, because clearly the the notion of feeling judged could lead to a sense of I might be rejected. And therefore there's a concern.
00:11:55:16 - 00:12:01:24
Unknown
want to take a slightly different lens, if I could. Our listeners are predominantly men aged 35 to 60.
00:12:02:00 - 00:12:40:08
Unknown
So midlife men, about 70. My team. That's why you're here. I recognize you, right? And I have a hypothesis that I'd love you just to to talk to that post. Hashtag me to post all of the conversations about overt and toxic masculinity. A lot of men are nervous and don't quite know what is permissible in terms of a conversation with a stranger, and even the idea of, hey, I'd like to give you a compliment because I really like your dress, or in your case, the red hat.
00:12:40:10 - 00:13:00:21
Unknown
I'm just not sure that that's going to land well, and again, ahead of today, I was asking if you feed often, folks, what is it you liked me to ask? This question kept coming up is what's permissible in our modern society, given all of the noise around all the other issues which are fair issues, no one's suggesting the not fair issues, but what's permissible?
00:13:00:23 - 00:13:27:20
Unknown
Bill Hewlett who was the founder of Hewlett Packard. Packard. He had a he had kind of a mantra that he lived by that I think is probably, probably a good one for people to have, which is never stifle a generous impulse. And, you know, I think what is permissible is authentic kindness and decency, and there's some potential that it would be misunderstood.
00:13:27:21 - 00:13:51:16
Unknown
Yes, but typically misunderstanding happens when you're not actually interacting or engaging with someone. You send an email or a Twitter or something like that. But, you know, I was on the train, was on the train ride going home, just last week. And there was a woman wearing a fabulous dress, and she just looked great. It was brightly colored.
00:13:51:22 - 00:14:13:15
Unknown
It was really terrific. Now I just I thought she looked great. And I want to tell her you were just killing it today. That is such a nice dress. And then I just moved on, right? I wasn't I wasn't being creepy. I meant that in the most sincere way. And I had faith that my sincerity and kindness and decency would be clear.
00:14:13:15 - 00:14:28:19
Unknown
I had a generous impulse, and I didn't stifle it. And I think that is an important thing to keep in mind. You know, it a lot of the, the, a lot of the stories we you hear about are not generous impulses.
00:14:28:19 - 00:14:29:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah,
00:14:29:20 - 00:14:34:17
Unknown
The Me Too movement was inspired by race, you know, by by
00:14:34:19 - 00:14:36:14
Unknown
Yeah, yeah,
00:14:36:14 - 00:14:48:05
Unknown
Right. And that not by people who were trying to be kind and were misunderstood. These were people who were being unkind and were well understood.
00:14:48:07 - 00:14:49:14
Unknown
And I think that's an important
00:14:49:14 - 00:14:50:17
Unknown
that's a big distinction.
00:14:50:18 - 00:14:51:13
Unknown
Yeah.
00:14:51:15 - 00:14:58:23
Unknown
when I turn to the woman sitting next to me on the train, I was generally interested in getting to know her, trying to understand a little more about her.
00:14:58:23 - 00:15:13:03
Unknown
I wasn't trying to steal from her or hit on her or do anything like that. And so I think generous impulses are still very much appropriate and encouraged and and should not
00:15:13:05 - 00:15:33:12
Unknown
I love that distinction. That's that's that's really clear. Very, very helpful. In your book, you outlined a lovely story which I had heard before and long forgotten. And you use it in a different way to I first heard about Charles Darwin and Charles Darwin, who was in in a contemplation about whether to propose to his cousin or not.
00:15:33:12 - 00:15:58:21
Unknown
And he used the classic two column and and what we have in the line of sight to is he's evolving sense of expectation over time, which then dramatically changed the way he made a choice so early in his career, as he was doing a column of whether to propose a not propose, all of the downsides of getting married were really loud in his mind later in his life that the upsides were getting married were really loud in his voice, in his mind.
00:15:58:24 - 00:16:16:02
Unknown
And of course, he was very happily married for 40 plus years. And and he tell that story and you tell the story about the Jessica Pan and the idea of choice and how we make choice. But can you talk to me about choice, expectations and how we can make it easier for ourselves?
00:16:16:04 - 00:16:41:01
Unknown
Yeah. So I think one, one I think the kind of the fundamental insight from our work is that connection isn't something that just happens to us. It's something we often choose and or choose to avoid. Right. And that can be a hard thing in our daily lives even to notice. Right? So, you know, the famous Sherlock Holmes observation about the dog that didn't bark?
00:16:41:01 - 00:17:08:24
Unknown
It's very hardest and hard to notice things that don't happen. But as a scientist, as a psychologist, we try to put all of that under the microscope to study it. And we notice both the conversations that people have and the conversations they avoid, the compliments people pass along, and also the ones that they don't pass along. And those choices then, that we make are guided by kind of our beliefs about how these interactions will, will turn out.
00:17:08:24 - 00:17:33:09
Unknown
And those are really driven by two different kinds of psychological systems and approach system and an avoidance system. The approach system in our brains is one that, that assesses all the reasons why we ought to do something. Right. So that's Darwin's. Yes. Proposed to Emma column. And our avoidance system is calculating all the reasons to avoid this, to not do this right.
00:17:33:10 - 00:17:57:08
Unknown
That's all of the don't marry. Things in Darwin's in Darwin's second, second column. And those two systems, interestingly, operate somewhat independently of each other so that, you know, you can have cases where it's clear, I want to do this thing and there's no nothing holding me back. Approaches high avoids as low you go ahead. But you can also have cases where you really want to do something.
00:17:57:08 - 00:18:12:23
Unknown
You have this approach orientation. Well be nice to have a conversation with this nice guy, you know, with a goatee and glasses sitting down next to me. But you also are a little nervous. I well, I'm not sure how this is going to go. It doesn't look like he really wants to talk to me. Right? What what do we have in common?
00:18:12:23 - 00:18:13:03
Unknown
I don't
00:18:13:03 - 00:18:25:07
Unknown
That sounds similar to exposure therapy for for those of us who have any kind of social anxiety is is the the treatment is not to practice, to talk to the treatment is to just do the talk. Yeah yeah
00:18:25:07 - 00:18:33:20
Unknown
You've done that on trains and with commuters in Illinois where you encourage people to try different conversations. What did you find?
00:18:33:22 - 00:18:57:10
Unknown
So that was actually where we started. So I got off the train that morning and I came to my office, where I'm sitting right now and right across from the the desk. I was in conversation with Julianna Schroeder, a fabulous PhD student at the time. So we kind of figured out how to study this. And so we went to the trains and conducted this experiment that my colleagues at the time thought was kind of
00:18:57:12 - 00:18:58:12
Unknown
Yeah.
00:18:58:14 - 00:19:07:20
Unknown
do, where we look to see our people are my commuters are my colleagues on the, you know, my neighbors on the train.
00:19:08:00 - 00:19:31:22
Unknown
Are they being wise by keeping the cells? They could be. Maybe they are. So we went back to we went to Homewood, Illinois, which is a, a little town just north of where we live. We live in Illinois, just to the north of us. They had a train station that allowed us to do this experiment pretty easily, and we recruited people, for an experiment, and then we randomly assigned them.
00:19:31:22 - 00:19:49:21
Unknown
This is key to any experiment is you randomly assign people to to condition. You don't allow them to choose whether they're in the drug treatment condition or the placebo condition. You assign them to it. So we then ask them to do one of three things on the commute that morning to keep to themselves and just enjoy their solitude.
00:19:49:23 - 00:20:13:21
Unknown
Don't talk with anybody to do whatever they normally do, which is keep to themselves. Or we told them to do something radical. Essentially, when somebody comes and sits down next to you, try to try to have a conversation with them. Try to get to know know the person a little bit, right. That's our connection condition. At the end of the commute, we had them take a survey out of an envelope that we gave to them, fill it out, tell us how the experience actually went, and then they mailed it back to us.
00:20:13:23 - 00:20:28:05
Unknown
And what we learned was that talking to a stranger didn't suck. In fact, it was the folks in the connection condition that reported having the most positive experience, and those in the solitude condition reported having the least positive experience. And that was
00:20:28:07 - 00:20:46:09
Unknown
he jumped out at me from your research was the personality is not really the moderator. And what I mean by that is extroversion versus introversion in its most basic form. Those of us who are extroverted tend to like energy from other people. Those of us who are introverted tend to prefer our own. Time is at its most basic form.
00:20:46:15 - 00:21:00:19
Unknown
And but what your research shows is actually when you when you encourage people who are self disclosing as introverts to get engaged with strangers, they enjoy it as much as anybody else. So it's not a personality piece, it's completely a choice piece.
00:21:00:21 - 00:21:22:14
Unknown
That's right. And that and that's that's actually not even from our work. So that's work that dates back 40 plus years in the field. So early 1980s was when psychologists first started studying how personality like extroversion is related to well-being or happiness. And at first blush, you wouldn't expect it to be right. Extroverts get what they want. Introverts get what they want.
00:21:22:15 - 00:21:53:22
Unknown
We're all kind of equally happy. That just turns out not to be true. Not remotely true. Extroverts report having more positive mood on a day to day basis, and they report being more satisfied with their lives in general and happier. And the effects aren't small. The effects are big. They're really big. And psychologists then started studying. Well, maybe, maybe the reason why folks who are more outgoing or extroverted are are happier is because they act more extroverted.
00:21:53:24 - 00:22:15:18
Unknown
And so then psychologists like Will fleecing is a psychologist at Wake Forest University who's the one I associate with the very first of this kind of this work had kind of the heretical idea. Well, what if we asked people to act extroverted? Would it increase people's? Would it make people feel better? And lo and behold, it did for introverts and extroverts alike.
00:22:15:20 - 00:22:46:01
Unknown
If and that that has been found just over and over and over again in research, you know, on half hour experiments in the lab, hour long. Of course, a course over the course of a day outside the lab, two weeks in field experiments that Sonia Lubomirski at UC Riverside conducts. What seems to differ, though psychologists were finding between extroverts and introverts again, was their beliefs about how they would feel in these different situations more than their actual experiences.
00:22:46:01 - 00:23:17:16
Unknown
And in fact, if I go through this, in some detail in the book, psychologists didn't quite believe this either. Up front, they were just as they were just a surprise and, and and and like aghast as, as, you know, normal folks would be at this or surprised by this. And so there was then kind of a research tradition that's been going maybe 15 years or so, still goes on today of people presuming that there must be some kind of cost to acting extroverted.
00:23:17:17 - 00:23:37:08
Unknown
Well, okay, maybe, but introverts get really tired. It turns out not to be true. They get just as tired as extroverts do, it turns out. They feel a lot inauthentic. No, that turned out not to be true. In fact, people felt more authentic, even introverts, when they were acting extroverted because they felt happier, they felt better.
00:23:37:13 - 00:24:01:01
Unknown
And then that's what people took as a sign of authenticity. So, you know, the data don't suggest that again, that you should be reaching out and connecting all the time. But they suggest that personality like this doesn't really describe the type of person you are. As much as it might describe the type of choices that you make. And I think that's an important thing to remember.
00:24:01:02 - 00:24:23:13
Unknown
It's a little bit like exercise, right? There are exercisers and non exercisers, but everyone benefits from exercise to some extent. Right. And so I think I think this highlights a powerful way that we can enrich our lives a little bit in times where it's easy, not much of a cost. There's not much of a risk reaching out and engaging with other people.
00:24:23:14 - 00:24:28:04
Unknown
Being kind and decent towards other people can be uplifting for us
00:24:28:06 - 00:24:46:02
Unknown
I think the thing I took from all of that and when I read it, and indeed, just as you say it now, is if personality is a set of preferences, I prefer this versus I prefer that. And then over time that becomes a set of habits. And then it reinforces a belief system of I am this because I believe it.
00:24:46:04 - 00:25:02:09
Unknown
If we believe that I, I don't talk to strangers or don't talk to people naturally, because that's just who I am. Actually, that is the self-defeating starting point right there.
00:25:02:11 - 00:25:04:01
Unknown
Okay.
00:25:04:03 - 00:25:22:05
Unknown
sometimes the labels we put on ourselves are, are right in some way, but sometimes they're not. And some of these are labels that are holding us back from living kinder, more generous, more enriched, happier lives than we otherwise, otherwise could be living.
00:25:22:05 - 00:25:35:19
Unknown
And I, you know, I think, again, you know, a doctor might tell you, you know, you'd be in better shape. You might even feel better if you exercised a little bit more. I'm sort of suggesting the same kind of thing. And it's and it's an invitation. It's not a
00:25:35:21 - 00:26:08:18
Unknown
you talk to me about surface level conversations? And what I mean by that is a lot of men naturally will jump to sport, will jump to weather, depending on which country in may jump to politics. Maybe not so much the US at the moment, but certainly is right. But as opposed to me, as opposed to deeper personal type conversations and I suppose my, my, as I was thinking about that, my first reaction was, I wonder, is that a, a an easy way out?
00:26:08:19 - 00:26:11:21
Unknown
And then I started thinking, oh, well, actually, it's an easy way in.
00:26:11:23 - 00:26:12:10
Unknown
yeah, yeah.
00:26:12:10 - 00:26:31:07
Unknown
So my colleague here, a new colleague here at the University of Chicago, Emma Templeton, describes small talk as conversational launch pads. I think that's the generous way to think about it, that, you know, if if you and I meet for the first time, I don't know what we have in common. And so I'll hunt around a little bit.
00:26:31:08 - 00:26:46:07
Unknown
You know, we're kind of like we're in a dark room and feeling around in the dark for for what we might both like to talk about or know something about. And conversation kind of works that way. It's got a magnetic quality where I say something and you tend to say something in a, you know, in a similar vein.
00:26:46:07 - 00:27:10:22
Unknown
And slowly we start to unearth things we have in common to talk about. And I think that's the I think Emma is thinking about this in the right way, that we start conversation often on kind of small talk topics, things that are not deep in the sense of being deeply personal. I'm not asking you about your hopes or your feelings or your dreams or things like that.
00:27:10:24 - 00:27:29:22
Unknown
I'm asking you kind of about external things, things that we might have in common, and that's a good place to start. That is the easy way in, I think that the, the issue with, with small talk isn't that it's not a bad place to start. It's that, it's often not a place where we want
00:27:29:24 - 00:27:32:00
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:27:32:02 - 00:27:52:21
Unknown
And you don't want to stick with that forever. The word hate and small talk are often used in close proximity to each other for a reason, so it's a good place to start. It's just not a great place to get stuck. And I think all too often our research suggests people get stuck in small talk because they think the other person doesn't want to have a more meaningful conversation.
00:27:52:22 - 00:28:13:20
Unknown
Right. And we find that you can you can go deeper in conversation really quickly if you try. And it goes much better than you think. So if you'd like to have more meaningful conversations with people, you can. If you're willing to give it a shot, I can start talking sports, but then I can ask you why. Why is it you love sports?
00:28:13:22 - 00:28:31:19
Unknown
What is it about sports that you love? Right? And that would take us down the road, right? About how? I don't know, maybe it makes you feel alive. And you played in high school, and you, you never felt so alive as when you were playing football here in the United States. You go running out onto the football field, as I did when I was in high school and college, in high school, on a Friday night.
00:28:31:19 - 00:28:34:22
Unknown
There's no better moment in your life
00:28:34:24 - 00:28:35:12
Unknown
Yeah.
00:28:35:13 - 00:28:43:07
Unknown
you're in high school. So you can these these conversational launch pads are a good place to start, but not necessarily great places
00:28:43:09 - 00:29:03:22
Unknown
I started a, what's now become a habit. Oh, maybe ten years ago when I was doing a lot of travel for my work, and I'd been in a different country, and I'd have a taxi driver and Uber driver, and quite often those drivers were not from that country. So my starting point was, when did you arrive here and has it been good to you?
00:29:03:23 - 00:29:26:01
Unknown
It was was my it was my pace. And that has emerged into the most fascinating conversations that I think I've ever been in. I've got one gentleman in Melbourne, I live in Sydney, he's in Melbourne. He was a Somalian refugee to Australia who ended up with his own Uber. And on the back of that conversation, he now picks me up in Melbourne.
00:29:26:01 - 00:29:55:09
Unknown
Every time I fly to Melbourne, I just ring him, I text him and he's there. This is eight years later from just that starting point of has it been good to you? Because that opens up an experience as to why you were a refugee, why you chose Australia versus somewhere else, etc., etc.. I've my wife is concerned when I'm coming home from town because she goes, if you if you're in a conversation with Taxi Driver, you could well be sitting outside her house for half an hour and the two of you are chatting.
00:29:55:11 - 00:30:10:00
Unknown
And I know you do similar things. What a year. Or let's say top five, if you will, starting conversation. How do you start a conversation to to let us not be stuck in small talk?
00:30:10:02 - 00:30:36:19
Unknown
So I like I like to ask people what their story is. I, I've shared this with other people before and they've, they thought it sounds manipulative or more of a burden that you're putting on somebody, but it has a similar quality, I think, to the has it been good to you in that you kind of you, I think at least when I do this authentically, I'm communicating with somebody.
00:30:36:19 - 00:30:54:10
Unknown
I just tell me about yourself. I'd love to get to know who you are and what matters to you. And how did you get here now? And in particular, if you are from somewhere else, your story is going to be interesting and often people will want will want to tell it. Right. And so that's, that's something I like to ask people.
00:30:54:10 - 00:31:28:22
Unknown
And I've had great conversations with, with people when I start with that. But often the conversations they don't follow, they don't follow a script. Exactly. And I actually think thinking in terms of kind of magic words or optimal questions, we can certainly do that. And Allison would Brooks, who is a researcher at the Harvard Business School, has shown that if you think about you plan a conversation a little bit before and you come in with some questions beforehand, those conversations can go a little better than if you don't.
00:31:29:00 - 00:31:43:10
Unknown
So it's not that it's not important to do that, but I think there's an earlier step that's that's even more important that becomes functional across lots of different interactions we have. And that is to change your
00:31:43:12 - 00:32:03:02
Unknown
not to think about it, what to say, but why you're saying it. If you go into a conversation just trying to be interested in somebody, if you take an interest in someone and you approach people with that mindset of curiosity, the conversation just tends to unfold and go better and go deeper, quicker.
00:32:03:07 - 00:32:26:10
Unknown
If you're genuinely curious about somebody experience. I was, I was in the why this is occurring to me, but I was in I was in the, the DMV, the Department of Motor Vehicles, which here in the United States, if you don't have a similar thing in Australia, is this close as anyone ever gets to
00:32:26:12 - 00:32:45:11
Unknown
you know, you're going you got to get your driver's license or license plate renewed, whatever. And it is an interminably long wait, almost no matter where you it is never a pleasant place. People hate going to the deep. I was standing there in line one day and we're all in this line, and, I was a guy next to me, and, you know, he looks kind of crusty.
00:32:45:13 - 00:33:01:07
Unknown
He looks like a guy who, you know, working outdoors and, and a little tough, and. And I took an interest in him. I just wanted to get to know, you know, what is it wasn't you do for for a living. And what brings you here? Here today? Why are you here? And, it turns out he was a farmer.
00:33:01:09 - 00:33:18:05
Unknown
I have a farming history in my in my past, on my extended family are farmers. I spent a lot of time outdoors. You know, I dug into, you know, tell me. Tell me what farming is like here. How is it? What does he do? What are you farming? Why are you in here today? And how? I got 30 trailers that all need a license on them.
00:33:18:05 - 00:33:41:19
Unknown
And they all come to a different times and you forget to get them registered. Anyway, we have this lovely conversation that I never could have prepared for these questions going in, but when you take an interest in someone, you know, the questions appear, I think, right? You can start from those conversational launch pads and try to get to know somebody when you're curious about them.
00:33:41:21 - 00:33:47:05
Unknown
Bill Nye famously once said that everyone you ever meet knows
00:33:47:07 - 00:33:53:03
Unknown
and when you approach people with curiosity, you're more likely to find it. So I think that's what's important your
00:33:53:08 - 00:34:08:15
Unknown
I'm interested in a voice and the importance of voice and in the and maybe even the lack of voice in texting or emailing. And the reason why I ask you, this is my business partner and I have learned so we've known each other for a long time.
00:34:08:17 - 00:34:22:11
Unknown
We've been friends for a long time. We became business partners in the last year or so. We've learned now that if we if there's any kind of a concern, something to do with the business, takes an email doesn't work for us.
00:34:22:13 - 00:34:31:18
Unknown
We it has to be a voice, be it video or telephone, because we were falling into the trap of misreading what the person meant.
00:34:31:18 - 00:34:43:12
Unknown
And I'm sure that's not unique to us. I'm sure that's a very common thing. It turns out I'm a human being. Flawed. How does voice play into all that?
00:34:43:14 - 00:35:08:13
Unknown
So the voice we find does three things in interaction and and the voice is really powerful, in part because the voice is as close as you ever get to somebody. Mind. I can't see your mind. I can't see your thoughts. I can't see your beliefs. I can't see your attitudes. But it turns out you can hear it. And a lot of the things that we do with our body that we think is so important for revealing our minds, turns out to be redundant with what's in our voice.
00:35:08:13 - 00:35:44:22
Unknown
It's actually your voice that communicates your complexity of thought. And so we get three things that happen. One is it communicates what's on your mind better. So for instance, we had people in an experiment, communicating sincere or sarcastic messages, either over email or with their voice. Now, of course, we understand kind of at an abstract level, that you can understand whether somebody is being sincerest or when you hear what they have to say better than when you just read what they have to say.
00:35:44:23 - 00:36:15:05
Unknown
Right. Tone. There's text has no intonation to it. Right? But your voice does and can clarify what you're actually thinking. What was interesting in that experiment wasn't that people were more accurate when they talked to each other than when they typed. That seemed kind of obvious. What was interesting was that those who were communicating, those who were actually sending the voice messages, didn't realize that they would be more, that they would be better when they communicated with their voice, with them, with their text.
00:36:15:05 - 00:36:36:22
Unknown
And those who were interpreting it also didn't realize that they were more accurate when they were hearing what the person had to say than when they were reading it. Both the recipients thought that they were getting about 90% of them correct, regardless of whether they were talking or typing to each other. In fact, when they were typing to each other, they were only getting 56%
00:36:37:00 - 00:36:38:14
Unknown
Ha ha.
00:36:38:16 - 00:37:02:02
Unknown
But they thought they were getting nearly all of them correct. Right. So this enables more accurate understanding. Voice also communicates not just what's on your mind. It also communicates that you have a mind that you are thinking, that you are reasoning that you are feeling right, so you can hear the process of thinking. When you listen to someone, I speed up.
00:37:02:02 - 00:37:28:21
Unknown
When I slow down right, my voice goes up and it goes down right. And that movement in your voice is what communicates the presence of mind. So we find that people think someone is more thoughtful, more intelligent, more rational when they hear what they have to say. Then when you read exactly the same text. And this matters a lot when you're, say, communicating with someone who disagrees with you politically, these are people who you would normally dehumanize.
00:37:28:21 - 00:37:30:08
Unknown
Think of them as kind of thoughtless or
00:37:30:10 - 00:37:43:08
Unknown
And you ran a love experiment in that regard in 2016, in the with the Trump Clinton president election, where you had supporters from each side. Right. And then talk to
00:37:43:10 - 00:38:07:21
Unknown
Yep. So, so your listeners there in Australia might, might remember we had an election back then that turned out to be kind of important between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. And we had Clinton voters and Trump voters explain why they were voting for their chosen Canada. And they either explained it by typing, they wrote something, or they they said over a video tape.
00:38:07:24 - 00:38:27:23
Unknown
And from that videotape, we got voice plus audio. We got just audio only. And we also got a transcript from that. Right. So we get voice based media and we get type typing, text based media. We then just had people say how human like essentially is this person, how thoughtful, how rational, how intelligent, how capable of emotion is this person?
00:38:28:00 - 00:38:45:19
Unknown
How reasonable is this person? And what we found was that the person seemed more reasonable, particularly when you disagreed with them, when you heard what they had to say, whether you saw them or not didn't matter. What only mattered was whether you were hearing what they had to say versus reading what they had to say. And people sounded more reasonable when you heard what they had to say.
00:38:45:22 - 00:39:09:09
Unknown
And that's problematic to the extent that people aren't really aware of how the context is shaping their views. But also troublesome when, you know, the world is increasingly going towards text based interactions. Right. The third thing that the voice does is it also connects us with each other again in surprising ways. I feel more connected to you when I hear what you have to say.
00:39:09:13 - 00:39:19:10
Unknown
Then when I read what you have to say. But again, people underestimate the magnitude of that effect, and they think typing is almost just as effective as talking to each other. And we're just
00:39:19:10 - 00:39:48:22
Unknown
There's a myth, or at least there's a story. Or there is a belief that making friends in midlife is particularly more difficult than, say, younger phases of life. And you talk about competence and worth in a way that I hadn't understood before. And and it reminded me of, let me take the example, reminded me of then I'd like you just to talk about the notion of worth and made life and what that might mean in terms of with the change of belief system.
00:39:48:24 - 00:40:04:15
Unknown
I've got a music club set up ten years ago. A gang of us go to a live gig probably every week or second week. That's the premise of the music club. And to be a member, it's really, really difficult. You've got to go to one gig a year and you've got to suggest a gig a year, then you're a member.
00:40:04:15 - 00:40:26:24
Unknown
So that's how difficult that is. And over the course of ten years, it's probably maybe been about 30 to 40 people come in and out of various phases of their lives. And where they live around here are not until and it's been fantastic. Covid stopped everything because there was no live gigs, and one of one of the guys said, why don't we meet on on zoom and we just play some music?
00:40:26:24 - 00:40:46:23
Unknown
Which the first week we did that, but then it changed something that said, next time, why don't we suggest an A song was really important to us when we were 14? Send it to me in advance and I'll see if I can find the video of that song. Right. So we came back in a few weeks later. Everyone, everyone was still at home in lockdown.
00:40:46:23 - 00:41:10:23
Unknown
Melbourne was in lockdown for years, so people were having takeaway food. But as it came to say, your turn to tell us the song that was really important to you, you have to tell us the story as to why that song was important. And then we saw the video of the band, whatever, and we learned more about each other in that six month lockdown period than we did in the whole ten years.
00:41:11:00 - 00:41:39:10
Unknown
And the notion of the how important my story was on you became really obvious to me, because your story was really important to me, and everyone's story became really important. And we suddenly realized, ahem, which music has influenced everybody, as it always does in that formative style of your life? But B, how really personal those stories became that we had never known about each other before, to the extent that we had no format for it.
00:41:39:10 - 00:41:55:21
Unknown
That's right. And the music club has thrived, I would say since then it was always gone thrive since then and and that so that says to me, friends, and midlife is not as difficult as we might make it out to be, but the format and process just didn't. It wasn't there, as you said.
00:41:55:21 - 00:41:57:02
Unknown
What's your sense of that?
00:41:57:03 - 00:42:01:21
Unknown
What's your sense of worth? What's your sense of competence in terms of of making friends in midlife?
00:42:01:23 - 00:42:19:13
Unknown
so let me, let me start with warmth and competence. I think this is important. It's one of the reasons why we underestimate how well will be received. I think when we reach out to connect with other people, and we tend to evaluate ourselves differently than other people evaluate us, we tend to think about ourselves in terms of our competency.
00:42:19:15 - 00:42:41:16
Unknown
Right? So are we good agents? Are we capable? Are we effective? Are we getting things done right? You're trying to get things done. And so you're focused on those those goals. Other people though tend to evaluate us in terms of our warmth. Other what other people care about for us is are we friendly or not? You know, are we are we the kind of person that they want to be around, or should I avoid you in some way?
00:42:41:17 - 00:42:55:16
Unknown
That's the thing we really want to know about other people. Even in domains where you think competency trumps everything else, like choosing a financial advisor, for instance, research suggests that mostly people go with the person who
00:42:55:18 - 00:43:00:14
Unknown
and, you know, I find that with my kids all the time, right? Like, I sent some off to college.
00:43:00:14 - 00:43:22:11
Unknown
How are your teachers? Right? How how are your professors? Oh, they're really nice. Like, you know, they don't tell me, you know, how well they know religious history or how good they are. Calculus or you know, their grasp on human evolution, right? They don't tell me that. They know they're nice. Right? That's the first thing I know. And I think that's easy for us to miss, right?
00:43:22:12 - 00:43:33:04
Unknown
That warmth really goes a long ways when you pass along a smile, when you don't stifle at generous impulse and you reach out to someone in a kind, friendly way, that's more powerful than
00:43:33:08 - 00:44:01:07
Unknown
that talks to which again, you distinguish this in your book, which is really important, the importance of moments as opposed to striving for long term meaningful interactions. If you if you're getting moments of interaction are fun or joy, they're they're often the things you remember the most. And it doesn't take a lot of effort, i.e. my my example with the taxi driver, it was a 20 minute drive, and now I see this guy 3 or 4 times a year.
00:44:01:09 - 00:44:22:23
Unknown
Yeah. Happiness lies in the moments of our lives. That's just crystal clear in the data. Two, that, I mean, there are things that make meaningful impacts over the over the long run. But if you want to predict how happy someone is at any given moment, you want to know not about the intensity of positive experiences they've had, but the frequency of them.
00:44:22:24 - 00:44:37:04
Unknown
Right. A good day is when you have a, you know, a nice morning, you had a nice breakfast of somebody, nice interaction, good meeting. You get something done, whatever. Then you have a nice lunch. That's a good afternoon. Right. You get home, you have a nice dinner with the family or spend some time with your spouse in the evening.
00:44:37:04 - 00:44:52:10
Unknown
Whatever. That's that's a nice evening. That's what it means to have a good day. Right? You string some of those along and they can just be the little moments. You pass along a kind word. You make somebody day or somebody makes your day right. With a kind word. Right? That's a moment that lifts you up. You string those days along.
00:44:52:12 - 00:45:11:18
Unknown
That's what it means to have a good week. You string those weeks along. That's what it means to have a good month, right? That's what it means to admit your life on a consistent basis. I think it's to sprinkle in more of those good moments. And I think the easiest way to do that is by reaching out and connecting with other people a little more often, because those are the things that often most reliably
00:45:11:23 - 00:45:31:21
Unknown
You say that Maslow's hierarchy were belonging to the third rung is not right. And when I read, I went, oh, that's interesting. This has been around for a long time. It's everywhere. Tell me why you reckon he didn't get it right or we didn't get it right?
00:45:31:23 - 00:45:57:05
Unknown
that. Right. So I you know, there was a meta analysis of research on human motivation published in 1974 that noticed noted this curious thing, which is that Maslow's hierarchy basically didn't have data to support it. And the part of the hierarchy that that. So Maslow's hierarchy, he suggests that there are different motivations that we have, and some are more basic than others.
00:45:57:06 - 00:46:14:15
Unknown
And the critical notion of the hierarchy was that you can't care about motivations that are higher up the pyramid until you satisfied the ones below, so you can't start worrying about safety and security, for instance, until you've had until you're not hungry anymore and you can't worry about belonging until you feel safe
00:46:14:17 - 00:46:18:05
Unknown
But the data just don't support that.
00:46:18:05 - 00:46:49:02
Unknown
People can be hungry and can want love at the same time. People can feel unsafe, but also wish they had more meaning and purpose in their lives. Right? And so the data suggests a particular pattern of correlations between these needs that just don't show up in the data. I think, the right way. I think Maslow's real contribution was to recognize that people have different kinds of needs.
00:46:49:04 - 00:47:08:24
Unknown
We have different kinds of needs, and they're multifaceted, and they can, in fact, operate in similar ways. The way that need for belonging operates is in many ways very similar to way our need for food or the need for autonomy operates. Right. And I think that's that's the real contribution of the hierarchy part,
00:47:09:01 - 00:47:11:11
Unknown
Yeah, that stacks up.
00:47:11:13 - 00:47:31:13
Unknown
And in some ways it can be kind of demeaning. It suggests that, you know, that homeless person that you pass on the street who doesn't have a house that's probably hungry, doesn't care about being loved, or doesn't care about having a sense of meaning or purpose in their lives. It's only folks like me who are safe and secure, you know, and accomplish in some way.
00:47:31:13 - 00:47:38:10
Unknown
It's only folks like me who can worry about having meaning and purpose in life. And that's just
00:47:38:12 - 00:47:57:20
Unknown
It's just not true. Yep. You're right. I got a few short questions for you before we finish up. I have a daughter. When she was younger, I would go up to strangers and said, do you like my new blue shoes? I really liked them. What do you think? And she started the most random conversations with the most random people.
00:47:57:20 - 00:47:59:20
Unknown
And now she works in seasonal marketing, surprisingly
00:48:00:00 - 00:48:26:00
Unknown
You have five children. And as I understand it, two. So three children you adopted you and your wife adopted two two year old originally, your last daughter has down syndrome. As I said to you before we spoke today, I've got some back on that space. My exposure is I learned so much from working with folks with any kind of intellectual disability, but down syndrome specifically.
00:48:26:02 - 00:48:35:15
Unknown
What have you learned from a communication point of view that has allowed that has infiltrated the work that you that you do or infiltrate the way you understand communication?
00:48:35:17 - 00:48:36:02
Unknown
yeah.
00:48:36:03 - 00:48:55:14
Unknown
My my daughter Lindsey. So we lost a baby along the way who had down syndrome. Sophia, we had already named her, and that was horribly painful experience in her life. And that's what got us got my wife thinking down this road initially about adopting a John Down syndrome. And that's eventually what we did. And we brought Lindsey into our life.
00:48:55:14 - 00:49:14:03
Unknown
And Lindsey Lindsay's ten now, and she was born in China, and she is just, she is just a powerhouse. And she's just an angel. She's hard. Hard in lots of ways. But she's also enriched our lives in ways I never would have imagined. And one of the most beautiful things, about Lindsey is she just. Doesn't she?
00:49:14:04 - 00:49:33:08
Unknown
There's lots of things she doesn't know. There's this. There's a book by this woman named Wendy Larson who I love about, this book I love about, you know what? What my daughter doesn't know. It's a book about kids with down syndrome. And it's things like my daughter doesn't know that it's not okay to talk, to hug, to hug strangers.
00:49:33:10 - 00:50:00:12
Unknown
It's not okay to compliment everyone you see. And my daughter, Lindsey, she has no filter on her hello whatsoever. And to watch her interact in the world to go around, I mean to take her grocery shopping. She's the most fun person to take grocery shopping ever because she says hello to everybody you walk by. And what's amazing is to watch them, to watch people come alive when she goes by in their presence.
00:50:00:14 - 00:50:18:07
Unknown
Right? They'll be walking around with this kind of resting dead face that we all carry around, and we're trying to get our pasta and our veggies or whatever. Right. And just, just. And she'll stop them all of a sudden kind of shake them out of that with a hello, good morning. And they just lighten up, right. This huge smile to look at the smile that they're getting.
00:50:18:09 - 00:50:37:10
Unknown
And we all have that power to some extent, and we often choose not to use it. She doesn't have that filter. She chooses to use it. She chooses to reach out whenever she can and to watch the power that she has. I swear she is the most popular kid in her school. Not necessarily because she's like the most, but she's most well known for sure.
00:50:37:11 - 00:51:05:00
Unknown
Everybody in her school knows who Lindsey is because she says hello to everybody. She says hello, particularly to the kids who have a hard time saying hello to other people to watch her comfort the other kids who are nervous on the first day or who are scared. She has a wonderful friend who is pretty socially anxious and to watch Lindsay.
00:51:05:02 - 00:51:27:05
Unknown
So, you know, Jen sent me a picture of Lindsey on the first day hugging her closest friend who was sobbing before going in. And Lindsey, she just didn't have she didn't have this barrier. People need boundaries. It's not okay to hug somebody. Whatever. She needs her space. She didn't have any of that. She just went right up and just gave her a big hug.
00:51:27:07 - 00:51:39:03
Unknown
And to watch Lindsey operate without a lot of those fears or barriers that keep us from, you know, showing our best selves to other people. It is a it is a it is beautiful thing to
00:51:39:05 - 00:51:42:18
Unknown
That's a that's a beautiful story. And
00:51:42:20 - 00:52:03:14
Unknown
it goes to your comment about warmth. You know, people are attracted to warmth, metal, where it comes from, who it comes from. Yeah. Yeah. So so she's carrying out a little more social. She's clearly a lot more social. Right? Yeah. Nick, it's been a fantastic conversation. I knew it would be. I was looking forward to chatting to you from when I first saw your book coming out.
00:52:03:14 - 00:52:21:08
Unknown
Appreciate you making your time for us today. My last question for you is this, you start off by saying I'm hoping people will be a bit more empowered for folks who are who are really going to go, okay, I want to distill everything you said, what is it? What's one tip or one word of wisdom you want to give the literature?
00:52:21:09 - 00:52:24:14
Unknown
Go. Go and try this. Or go and think about this.
00:52:24:16 - 00:52:44:09
Unknown
So the one that I always keep in mind is when in doubt, reach out that that again, our research doesn't suggest you should be reaching all the time out all the time. It's the places where you're likely to to be making a mistake. Or when you like, you've got that generous impulse, but you're stifling it because you're worried about how the other person might respond.
00:52:44:10 - 00:53:07:10
Unknown
And so you're a little bit doubtful. That's the moment to test, right? That's the moment to check, to see whether that bar that's holding you back from reaching out and engaging with somebody is really made out of steel, or whether it's more like a wet pasta noodle. And when you test those beliefs that are holding you back from other people is when you learn the places where you have more power to connect with, with other people than you might have, might have guessed it.
00:53:07:10 - 00:53:21:03
Unknown
Again, it's not. It's not all cases. But like when you're in doubt, you feel safe. You'd like to, but you're a little worried about this, this little thing. You worried about how they're going to respond. They might judge you. They might not want to talk. That's when you should try. When in doubt,
00:53:21:05 - 00:53:22:15
Unknown
Nick, thank you so much.
