While mentoring a teenage boy through his father's suicide, Ian Westmoreland broke down himself, and realised the mentor needed mentoring.
If you've spent years being the one everyone leans on, with no one you lean on in return, you know this feeling.
Ian walked away from a senior IT career at 59 and a half, the day he read a line in a book that named who he'd become. He founded Mentoring Men and Kintsugi Heroes, built on one idea: men need to be heard, not fixed. He's since received an Order of Australia for it.
He still hasn't worked out how to give his mission and his family equal weight, and says so plainly. What he has learned, through two charities and a cancer mainstream medicine had given up on, is that the hard stuff gets lighter once you stop carrying it alone.
If there's no one you'd say the real thing to, start here.
Top Moments
Meet the Guest
Ian Westmoreland
Ian Westmoreland OAM spent 42 years in the Australian and New Zealand telecommunications and energy sectors, mainly as an IT project manager, before leaving paid work in 2013 to become a full-time volunteer. He founded Mentoring Men in 2018, a free national mentoring service for Australian men, and later established Kintsugi Heroes, a storytelling platform built on the Japanese art of repairing broken pottery with gold.
He was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia in 2024 for services to men's mental health and to youth. In 2022 he was diagnosed with stage four melanoma, and after immunotherapy, brain radiation and a period in which his oncologist said mainstream medicine had run out of options, he is now in remission.
He lives in Sydney, married 43 years, with four children and thirteen grandchildren.
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00:00:00:02 - 00:00:09:18
Unknown
Ian, welcome to don’t let the old man in. I'm so, so excited to have you here. Thanks. A great opportunity to be here. Thank you. Well, you're someone who a lot of people have talked to me about,
00:00:09:18 - 00:00:14:08
Unknown
So I want to start not quite at the beginning because you weren't you were in your 50s.
00:00:14:13 - 00:00:35:14
Unknown
So it's not quite the beginning, but you read a book, I think you read it on a on a bus or train. I think the book was called Sun Stand, Sun Stand Still. And there's a passage in the book that really stopped you in your own tracks. So you hold on, I think he's talking to me, and you change your life pretty much straight away and stopped paid work.
00:00:35:16 - 00:00:54:09
Unknown
I went into something very, very different. Now, most people, if they're going to do a major project, second half life, they least pause, plan it out. You didn't. You went straight ahead to it. Two questions. What was what was it in the book that really got your attention? And why did it catalyze you to move so fast to do something different?
00:00:54:09 - 00:01:33:23
Unknown
Okay, so let me set the scene. So married for 43 years for kids and early on in marriage, my wife was looking after babies and we were struggling. So money was a challenge for us. And I would work full time and also do part time jobs trying to make ends meet. Now fast forward to the times you were talking about in my late 50s, and I managed to work my way into fairly well paid roles as a senior IT manager, and in 2013, I started to increasingly think there's more to life than just making money and delivering software changes.
00:01:34:00 - 00:01:56:21
Unknown
And then on the 10th tember 2013, a key date with so much significance behind that date. But I got on the train at Asquith to go to work. I continue to read a book that my youngest daughter given me, and you mentioned the book Sun Standstill, which incidentally, I've never read again, but the changes your life again. But it totally changed my life.
00:01:56:21 - 00:02:17:24
Unknown
And, it's our programs are secular. I'm Christian, it was a Christian book, and the author was querying the roles of Christians in today's society. And he had a list of things that we thought we should be doing or that we're doing. And as I went through that list, I was ticking them all off. They all related to me.
00:02:18:01 - 00:02:46:02
Unknown
And then at the end of this list, he said he'd age 59.5, collect retirement, die hit, age 59, half collect retirement, die. Now the whole thing had resonated with me, had been meditating on that. I was born on the 10th of March, 1954. I was 59.5 to the day that I read that. Now I've shared that hundreds of times and the reactions are mixed.
00:02:46:05 - 00:03:13:06
Unknown
Wow, wow. That's a message to wow, what a coincidence. And that's fine. This is just what happened. And that was the first of a series of things. The next one was 2 or 3 days later. That actually led me down the mentoring path. And I guess you said quick to action. One of my favorite sayings expressions is is ready, fire, aim and the bulk of the world is ready, ready.
00:03:13:08 - 00:03:20:19
Unknown
I'm ready, ready. Aim. There's a few. The other extreme certainly not recommended this fire. You haven't.
00:03:20:21 - 00:03:40:16
Unknown
But I take action so. And it for at a personal level, that was the best decision. It's been an incredible that last 12 years fulfilling journey. My wife doesn't share all of that. Well, I turned my back on a high paid job to basically give back.
00:03:40:16 - 00:03:58:15
Unknown
And my my, I guess one of my goals was to lose the least amount of money, possibly in the ventures. But yeah, so that's why I did it. I'll come back to Family Impact because you are someone who's all in, as you said, you you're 120% on everything you do. So I'm keen to understand the impact they had for other people.
00:03:58:17 - 00:04:33:13
Unknown
But you ended up setting up two different organizations, and I want to talk to both of them mentally men and consider heroes. But actually, your story started before that. You wrote a letter a few years earlier to Dig Smith, an Australian entrepreneur, the kind of Richard Branson of Australia, if you will, with an idea. And he wrote back to you, and you ought to sent me a copy of letters you also wrote at the same time, with all these ideas you had and what was happening like ten, 20, 30 years ago that was causing you to go, I want to reach out to these people to get some help or to get them to do
00:04:33:13 - 00:04:57:16
Unknown
something. And then what happened when they respect you and go. Go ahead yourself and do it. So growing up, I found a number of challenges. One of the things my dad would do, we would go camping with with his mates and my my brothers and his mates sons, and it was all about guns. It was about shooting things.
00:04:57:19 - 00:05:18:14
Unknown
And, I remember one of these mates, he'd have the 303 and he would lie on the grass and be trying to shoot the wedge tailed eagles out of the sky. And these are just beautiful creatures. Why would. And he always had an answer to that. And that was generally all I'll take sheep or whatever. And I hated the killing.
00:05:18:16 - 00:05:39:11
Unknown
And they would go out spotlighting, looking for rabbits. And in fact, one night they shot a wombat. And again, there was this justification for that. I didn't want to go. So as a, I guess, a ten year old, I would stay back in the tent on my own, questioning my manhood. And, so that was one of the challenges.
00:05:39:11 - 00:06:01:15
Unknown
What sort of man am I that I'm going to go out and kill things? And through my teenage years and even into my early 20s, there was a lack of confidence and self-esteem. I was really good at sport. Like I later on won a gold medal in the World Masters in tennis, played high grade tennis and squash. But in a way it was.
00:06:01:17 - 00:06:27:24
Unknown
People would be attracted to that. But behind that, do they really want to know the real Ian? And even there was a fear at one stage, the fear of loneliness that, you know, I'd be on my own and people outside would never have seen that. But that was where it was. Then later on, as I started to read books, I'd seen the transformation power of those books, the Nelson Mandela type books.
00:06:28:00 - 00:07:07:12
Unknown
And I always travel by train. I devoured books, and it built this confidence and self-belief and, it changed. It changed me. And I realized I went from being introverted and shy to being more outgoing, and realized that often I get energized by encounters, encounters like this. So in August 1993, I had this idea, and at the time, it was to get famous people who'd overcome adversity, to share their story, to give hope and inspiration to the ends of the world.
00:07:07:14 - 00:07:26:06
Unknown
Okay, back then and I still like, I guess, lacking confidence. I thought it had to be famous people, and it needed someone famous to contact the famous people to get them to share their story. And all my self. Right? And one of the guys I wrote to, as you said, was Dick Smith, and he took the time to send me back a handwritten note.
00:07:26:10 - 00:07:47:01
Unknown
I still got somewhere and it said, Ian, this is a great idea. And then he had it. You do it. And I contacted him a couple of years ago when we were producing our first book with heroes, and I asked him if he would be kind enough to do the forward, and he remembered the conversation. He remembered the letter he had sent me, but he was too busy at the time.
00:07:47:02 - 00:08:08:14
Unknown
I mean, this huge demands on him. But yeah, if he knew the impact that that that had on me, and then 30 years later, I actually did what he told me I should do. It's interesting. It's it's a simple thing to write a handwritten note, and it might take 30s, but it has an impact. Has lasted over 30 years.
00:08:08:16 - 00:08:28:19
Unknown
Yeah. Look, we talk. Even a smile that that that just acknowledgment of someone that can make a huge impact that we're not even may never become aware of. But it doesn't matter. It costs nothing. Yeah, it's a lovely story. And I'm going to get some of those names wrong now, but, Rosser Crowe, actor, famous actor, Australian actor.
00:08:28:23 - 00:08:53:12
Unknown
And filming somewhere, some near a high school. Some young guys are playing rugby. He goes over to Western well, signed some, autographs on the back of some photographs, and one of the young guys asked. Oh, no. Tell me what I need to become an actor. And he wrote some advice in the back of the photograph. 20 years later, that same guy is acting beside him in a movie, and he's now playing Superman.
00:08:53:17 - 00:09:18:20
Unknown
I, I, I had a can I share. I had a similar experience like, I, when I left work, the first thing I did was trained to be a raise mentor. So raise Foundation mentors, kids in high schools. And I signed up for that. And I was mentoring at multiple schools in 2014. I was eventually a young guy in one of the Sydney high schools.
00:09:18:22 - 00:09:47:09
Unknown
Half the time I turned up, he wouldn't be there, and when there we'd just chat about footy. So that was two school terms. Under the raised program, there's a graduation. I made a little speech about him, handed the certificate. Eight years later, I had a phone call from raise. This young guy had contacted them asking if he could get my phone number, and he rang me and he wanted to share what that had done.
00:09:47:10 - 00:10:13:22
Unknown
I had no idea. And then he actually went on to make a promotional video for raise. So such strong encouragement. We don't know the impact that be kind, do positive things and, you know, a ripple effect forever. Yeah. Exactly. Right. So you you set up mentoring men as an organization. Some of the key stats that you have in your, in your material that probably were, I suspect, haven't changed.
00:10:13:22 - 00:10:40:21
Unknown
But nonetheless, the impact that you have helps mitigate against these, the number one cause of death for Australian men aged 15 to 44. Suicide. That's a pretty big statistic. 1 in 4 Australians feel very isolated. And that's not unique to Australia. This is very much a Western part of the world. Statistic 1 in 8 men will experience depression at some stage in their life, and 1 in 5 men would experience anxiety on a regular basis.
00:10:40:23 - 00:11:04:04
Unknown
So there are huge statistics that are well known and well documented, but not necessarily solved for you. Help set up a peer support group for men called Mentoring Men, and you've said that there's often tears in the room, something most men would never have predicted of themselves before they came into the room. Yeah. So tell me about the program and how it came about.
00:11:04:06 - 00:11:34:00
Unknown
It came about through mentoring young kids. And I learned so much from these young guys in the mentoring world in schools, the majority of mentors of women, the often I'd be to school would say 15 other mentors. There might be 1 or 2 other guys there. Over half the mentees are boys. So often the kids are being mentored by someone who's just like their mum, so the men would always be allocated to it.
00:11:34:02 - 00:11:56:01
Unknown
It's a really interesting. It is. Yeah, yeah. And for some of them that may be suitable for others not looking for male role models. Yeah. And I was mentoring this young guy and he shared with me that his father had suicided. His mum was an addict who was in and out of rehab. He was living with his grandparents, which he hated.
00:11:56:02 - 00:12:26:21
Unknown
And then he just turned. He looked me in the eyes and he started crying and he said he and helped me. And what can you do? What can you do in a school environment? There's no exchange of information. So under the raised model, you debrief with a program counselor at the end of the session. And I asked to meet a one on one, and I explained the situation to her looking for advice, and she said, Ian, are you okay?
00:12:26:23 - 00:12:54:01
Unknown
And I just started crying. And, I mean, what can you do? I and and I was flat for a couple of months. I'm normally high, but like, I just got going on and at one Saturday morning, I was thinking, why is why am I feeling this way? I realized I wanted to have a mentor, just like all these kids have been mentoring.
00:12:54:05 - 00:13:30:00
Unknown
And it's really important. Differentiation. If you say mentor to most adults, they immediately assume what I call business mentoring, which is someone with the quiet skills and knowledge and experience, provides guidance and direction and advice to someone else. I certainly wasn't doing that. I was providing what I call life mentoring. It's predominantly listening, it's supporting, it's encouraging. And what I was looking for was a life mentor, someone that I could just be vulnerable with, share what was going on.
00:13:30:02 - 00:13:59:17
Unknown
So I did a search, a worldwide search looking for the nearest organization that provided free life mentoring to men surely had existed, and it didn't. How disappointed that you mentioned before the suicide. The suicide rate of men to women is around three or 4 to 1. When men are going through separation, it's 12 to 1. Yeah. And I decided to I'm going to create this organization that that didn't exist.
00:13:59:17 - 00:14:23:11
Unknown
And then more of these miracles along the way. I my local federal members, Julian Lisa is the shadow minister for a whole bunch of stuff at the moment. And I went to a talk that he gave around. He was talking a partner who was lifeline, and I don't know why. I had a manila folder with my Mentoring Men proposal in this folder.
00:14:23:13 - 00:14:47:24
Unknown
He shared this powerful story about his dad's suicide. I made a beeline for him. Straight afterwards. He saw me come in. I told him what I wanted to do. He said, come and talk to him, his office. And then he launched mentoring men at Asquith Golf Course. He promoted it in federal parliament and in fact, he's opening speech, Federal Parliament, which has had probably half a million views.
00:14:47:24 - 00:15:10:15
Unknown
He shared about his father's suicide. So one of the so he's been a huge supporter. He got us to federal parliament later on to meet some of the key government ministers around that. So there's that was the start. I'm committed. I'm going to do and maybe we'll see later on. Whenever I commit to do something, I do everything within my power almost to obsession to make it make it work.
00:15:10:17 - 00:15:39:19
Unknown
And after a slow start, it just boomed. We were running mentoring workshops, helping men identify their existing abilities to mentor, helping them realize they don't have to fix every situation. Other men aren't broken. They don't need fixing. They just need. I'm going to say love, but just validate. They need to be heard. And it rolled out nationally. Oh, we set up all these peer support groups that you mentioned.
00:15:39:21 - 00:16:08:10
Unknown
Again, a group of men who meet, say, once a month. They've developed this trust and it's incredibly powerful. With the Mentoring Facilitation Workshop. We also launched this at Ascot Golf Course. I didn't develop it. I had an input into it. And when I looked at the guy that this amazing guy Mark Henderson had developed, I saw in the second day, it was a two day workshop.
00:16:08:12 - 00:16:28:12
Unknown
There was a talking circle. I didn't even know what a talking circle was. When I looked at this, I thought, this is going to suck. I know it. Was he the rules or the the way you operate it. There's an object that's handed around. When you've got the object, share what you're feeling, not thinking. Share what you're feeling.
00:16:28:15 - 00:16:52:17
Unknown
If you want to, you can pass. When you have the object. No one interrupts. No one. Comments. Now, coming from the corporate world, I didn't want to participate in this. Yeah, the very first guy is actually a guy from our church. I miss my dad and he started sharing the relationship he had with his father and his father had passed away.
00:16:52:19 - 00:17:16:22
Unknown
Next guy I can't get access to my kids and he's my mum gambled away our house and then by the time it comes around, it's contagious. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, this stuff came out and the peer support groups carry that on with supported men through relationship breakdown, through physical and mental illness, job loss, all these sorts of things.
00:17:16:24 - 00:17:41:09
Unknown
And it's just so powerful. If we could move to a society where that happens not just for men, but for men and women, that would be brilliant. What brings men into groups like this? That was the catalyst for someone to go, oh, I've heard about being told about mentoring men. I need to come into this. One of the constraints at the moment, men break an arm.
00:17:41:11 - 00:18:10:16
Unknown
I've got to go to the doctor and get it fixed. Men experiencing anxiety, depression, far more reluctant to reject. There's a perception they're broken. I'm not going to go and see a mental health professional dizzy it. He's not qualified to any of this space. He's just a bloke. We chat about anything, he listens to me. We've talked about football or whatever the attraction is.
00:18:10:22 - 00:18:44:03
Unknown
There's someone you can be vulnerable with. Share what you're feeling, not be judged. Know if you're quite as confidential, incredibly powerful. What happens over time to mend the community groups like this. And what I mean by that is some who someone on this show said a word ago that they have a similar type of process. And someone said to him, I came into this group believing that my emotions were black or white, and I'm walking out realizing I've got a whole rainbow of emotions I didn't even know I had.
00:18:44:06 - 00:19:05:19
Unknown
And I thought that was a fabulous illustration of someone learning about themselves. What happens for you guys to come through? Yeah. First, I pick up what you just shared about emotions. I think a lot of men, if you ask them to describe emotions, it's like asking them to describe colors. Well, there's there's black, there's white, there's red, yellow, green, blue and and of course the women.
00:19:05:23 - 00:19:29:07
Unknown
And that's the carrots. There's primrose. I mean, I can't even think of all the colors. And as part of the mentor facilitation workshop, there was an emotions wheel. I don't know if you've seen this, but there's hundreds of these things and you drills down and all that stuff. So there's a whole bunch of emotions. I've mentoring it at primary schools as well.
00:19:29:07 - 00:20:04:03
Unknown
So I was mentoring high schools and primary schools. And there we had an A4 sheet with a bunch of heads with different emotions. And you would say to that 7 or 8 or which one of these do you feel like today? And it was like really clever. So, those emotions are really important. Sorry, I've forgotten. The other part of the question was, the question is when people come through, what do they learn on the way through, or what's the transformation on the way through?
00:20:04:05 - 00:20:37:15
Unknown
They learn the power of vulnerability. They learn, that through sharing what they're experiencing. Often we think we're the only one feeling a certain way. It's almost like there's a shame associated with that. But when people start to honestly share that, and I've mentored, I guess, tens of people, one of the this young, amazing guy in Perth, it was a relationship and he had high suicide ideation.
00:20:37:17 - 00:21:03:18
Unknown
But we as we met and we started sharing and listening that progressed to like his amazing guy doing all this stuff. And the relationship almost reversed as I started going through my physical challenges. He was then checking in on me and it's like I and I like mentoring is not a hierarchical relationship. It's a, it's a it's a partnership.
00:21:03:19 - 00:21:22:02
Unknown
Yeah. You know, it's something you said I think it's really important you said about the they learn how to be open, to learn how to be vulnerable. Are we we learn how to be open, not they. And I heard you say once that you grew up learning that manhood looked like a cross between Eastwood, James Bond and Indiana Jones, right?
00:21:22:05 - 00:21:45:00
Unknown
Yeah. And as you said that my thought is superheroes on one hand, stoic men, Clint Eastwood particular on the other hand, but lone wolves, all three of them, like none of them are depicting family, are being part of a trading or on a building site or an office. They were lone wolves and and they're held up to be heroes.
00:21:45:06 - 00:22:08:13
Unknown
At least the characters they played are led to be here, as I should say, not not those themselves. And what you're talking about is, you come into a group like mentoring men, and you realize straight away also, not just me, I'm not the only one going through a tough time. I don't have access to my kids, or my mate doesn't have access to his kids, or, like, it normalizes life straight away, doesn't it?
00:22:08:18 - 00:22:35:02
Unknown
It does. We did a project in south west Sydney, and one of the exercises that they wanted to do was like to try and define a man. And it's I find it almost impossible to define the traits of a man. It's easier to define the traits that a man shouldn't have. Men should not perpetrate domestic violence. Men should not abuse kids.
00:22:35:04 - 00:23:01:18
Unknown
But other than that, I mean, I. I cry more films. My grandkids paint my toenails like it's. And there's things that the older we got this you're worried about not fitting some externally derived stereotype that you'd be at. No one should be forced to be different from what their true their true calling. I prefer to define what a good human being is than what a man is.
00:23:01:19 - 00:23:27:07
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And then use that as a guideline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard you say once that not long after you set up mentoring men and and after you were, supported by your federal MP, you got a grant to help run the organization, and you immediately ran a Arabic language class for some men refugees in your tell you about that story.
00:23:27:14 - 00:23:48:01
Unknown
That seems like a very, very now that I know you more than I did when I read this research, I go, I get why you did that. Yeah. So the the backstory there, one of the local community papers was a strong supporter of what we did, and they put us on the front page of their paper.
00:23:48:01 - 00:24:28:12
Unknown
And that got us connected with SBS and a number of other organizations. And we partnered with an organization that supported migrant refugees or refugees, predominantly from Iraq and Syria. And most of these guys didn't speak English. They, they, they spoke Arabic and but they there's a lot of trauma for these from many of these people. What they've in fact, one of the stories was that this guy ran a TV repair business, and I think he was a Christian, and someone mailed a bullet in, and that was because he was a good guy.
00:24:28:12 - 00:24:54:19
Unknown
Everyone loved him. But that the bullet means you got a day to get out of the country. So he fled with his wife and daughter. And so imagine the trauma that's that's there. And, so they were really keen to and I mentoring men was going to be a great opportunity for them. So we we got a translator interpreter and we ran the Mentoring Men workshop in Arabic.
00:24:54:20 - 00:25:24:02
Unknown
And I remember there was about 70 of these guys and we all met, at Circular Quay and we, we did this walk around the opera house, did a photo shoot, went to the potato gardens and had lunch with these men and the ones who could speak English there. So family orientated. One of our, team members had their five year old son there and fascinated by him.
00:25:24:03 - 00:25:51:19
Unknown
They were so generous, offering food. And it's it's beautiful to see. Like, if we look past at the the culture politically at the moment, it's it's sad and speed to see what's happening. But these just, you know, just humans full of love expression in connection and just wanting to give back. And we for many of these people, we gave them the opportunity to get back.
00:25:51:21 - 00:26:24:15
Unknown
A lot of them had high qualifications are but those qualifications weren't recognized in Australia. So they're unfulfilled and you know, giving them a role like this. So so as you know, I'm quite involved in refugee settlements myself and the group that I'm involved with for a whole range of different reasons, particularly accommodation. We tend to work with, with men and, and they've often been in refugee camps in different parts of the world for a number of years, and their families are stuck in the country of origin.
00:26:24:17 - 00:26:42:17
Unknown
And one of the first things we do is bring him to the opera house, Circular Quay Botanical Gardens. So they get they get a sense of freedom, for a start. And the beauty of a of a warm Sydney summer's day and those occasions just breathtaking. But what I've learned over the years of doing this, and I was completely unexpected for me.
00:26:42:19 - 00:27:01:18
Unknown
You go into the Botanic Gardens and if anyone who has not been botanic gardens in Sydney, they're just fast, beautiful gardens with trees and plants all over the world. We're bringing these newly arrivals to Sydney. We're walking on the gardens. In my view, I'm thinking we're bringing this beautiful part. You can see the harbor, you can see the opera house, you can see Miss Macquarie's chair.
00:27:01:20 - 00:27:24:24
Unknown
Next thing I'm going, I'm hearing from them are this tree. And they tell me about the tree because it's actually a tree from their homeland. Yeah. And so they're excited to go, oh, I recognize this. And they're telling me. So I'm hearing stories about planted trees that I know nothing about. As, as they're arriving in the first week in Australia, which is just a beautiful sense of, oh, it's a home away from home from you, just in the sense of a plant.
00:27:25:03 - 00:27:43:10
Unknown
Yeah, I love that. And I think we probably need to be aware as well, often because of the trauma they've faced. And I think there was something around Covid where police or, you know, that can trigger because of their own lived experience. And yeah, tell me what you've learned over the years. And what I mean by this is you said to me.
00:27:43:12 - 00:28:07:10
Unknown
I think last week we before we were chatting, you said the earlier version of you was the one who was quite judgmental, and he replaced that. I yeah, it's it's it's true, I guess well-meaning, but, I mentioned, you know, what we do as secular. I'm Christian, and, I had views on uneducated views on a bunch of different things.
00:28:07:12 - 00:28:31:12
Unknown
I thought I understood addiction and I had no idea about addiction as an example, no one sets out. I think I'll become an addict today. And, one of the guys once said to me, because we sexual abuse often comes up in our podcast, and this guy said to me, and if you were to reduce, addiction, stop sexual abuse.
00:28:31:14 - 00:29:02:01
Unknown
But then I got it. And as a society, we often judge people on their behavior without looking at the backstory. And the same thing we are as a Christian. There were views among some Christians around homosexuality, gender issues and things like that. And heroes last week launched a Pride in Stories podcast, and it was just the amazing response.
00:29:02:01 - 00:29:23:20
Unknown
In fact, I reached out to the very first hero and just to thank him, and he wants to volunteer with heroes. So I'm hoping, we just let the stories do the work. So I, I've become I've moved from a bit of a judge mental jerk or someone actually told me maybe it was fear, but replacing that with love and it's liberating.
00:29:23:20 - 00:29:54:22
Unknown
It's so much easier. So. Yeah. Do you think it was fear? I think it's more, I think ignorance, probably ignorance more than fear and I guess misguided views of things I didn't know about. And I, I often use analogy. I think one of the issues was seen in society, particularly on social media, is this, this fixed position.
00:29:54:24 - 00:30:13:11
Unknown
Let's say I go to America with Trump. What would it take? What information would you need to hear before you change your view, say, on the American president? And I suspect an often response would be there's nothing you can say that would change. So with me, I like the idea of there's two extremes, yes, no black, white, whatever.
00:30:13:17 - 00:30:34:02
Unknown
And there's a wire that goes between them but never reaches either extreme, never gets there. And there's a bead on the wire. And as I talk to you, as I, as I talk to someone who's experienced an addiction or sexual abuse or transgender, I'll move that bead along based on the information I've got. But it never reaches either extreme.
00:30:34:04 - 00:30:57:14
Unknown
So I'd like to think I'm always open to taking more information and adjusting my behavior and my thoughts based on that. And this has been learned over the years. Yeah, yeah. And I like to think I'm doing that a lot more now than what I've done before. Can I read you something? Yeah. This is a point that you sent me, so I want to read it back to you.
00:30:57:16 - 00:31:16:04
Unknown
I, I had heard it before, but I, I when you send it to me, I printed out to readers aloud to myself because I thought this was something that was really important to you because you said it to me. But it also goes to what you just talked about. And I think this is the core if I if I think about mentoring men.
00:31:16:04 - 00:31:31:18
Unknown
And here's what you're going to come to in a minute. This is the core that sits in both of them. And to me this is the core that sits in the, the the word humanity. Yeah. So I want to read it out to you to see what you think. So it's called please listen. A guy called Ray Hart and wrote it in 1979.
00:31:31:22 - 00:31:49:16
Unknown
It's when I ask you to listen to me and you start giving me advice. You have not done what I was asked when I asked you to listen to me, and you begin to tell me why I shouldn't feel that way. You are trampling on my feelings when I ask you to listen to me, and you feel you've done something to solve my problems, you have failed me, straight as that may seem.
00:31:49:18 - 00:32:16:22
Unknown
Listen, all I ask is that you listen, not talk or do. Just hear me. Advice is cheap. $0.25 will get to you both Dear Abby and Billy Graham in the same newspaper. And I can do that for myself. I'm not helpless, maybe discouraged and forgery, but not helpless. When you do something for me that I can and need to do for myself, you contribute to my fear and inadequacy.
00:32:16:24 - 00:32:40:04
Unknown
But when you accept as a simple fact that I do feel what I feel, no matter how irrational, then I can quit trying to convince you and get about the business of understanding what's behind this irrational feeling. And when that's clear, the answers are obvious and I don't need advice. Irrational feelings makes sense when we understand what's behind them.
00:32:40:06 - 00:32:59:13
Unknown
So please listen and just hear me. And if you want to talk, wait for a minute, for your turn and I listen to you. I love that and that. How good would it be if we had a lot of that going on in the world today? And one of the points there, there's a tendency for all of us to try and fix an issue.
00:32:59:15 - 00:33:28:24
Unknown
But when someone can speak what they're honestly feeling without judgment, without interruption, without comment, the answer to their situation often that, yeah, it's just validating being present there to to hear them speak that and it's dangerous. We make suggestions. Oh, you should leave her or you should do this. We haven't got that lived experience. We don't know what's going on.
00:33:28:24 - 00:33:50:10
Unknown
We're not in their shoes. And you know, I know how you feel. Well, no you don't. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's never made sense to me when people say this is a soft skill, I think it's one of the hardest skills you can possibly get. And one of the most, constructive relationship building artifacts. You can you can develop.
00:33:50:13 - 00:34:15:03
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Let's turn to heroes because it's it's it started with a letter. Yeah. It's it's an extraordinary organization with 70 people paid and volunteers. But I'm holding it in my. For the audio listeners who are listening to this, I'm holding my hand a picture of Japanese pottery. So for listeners who are going, what's he talking about?
00:34:15:04 - 00:34:43:24
Unknown
Explain what this is and why. Then the organization is called heroes. So at the end of 2021, mentoring men was booming. I'd been working seven days a week. I said I'd do everything with a passion. Nearing burnout. At that stage, we had sufficient financial resources to put in place a pay a small pay team to do what me and other volunteers were doing.
00:34:44:01 - 00:35:09:15
Unknown
And under a strong encouragement for my wife, I stepped aside from being the CEO of Mentoring Men, and I had about three months off. And then I reflected back on the Dick Smith and and that and by that stage, I built up a fairly large network, particularly in the men's mental health space. And I, I wanted to do something around the power of storytelling.
00:35:09:17 - 00:35:33:13
Unknown
And I shared that with a few people. And this guy, the same guy who developed the Mentoring Men Facilitation Guide, said to me, and I've got the name for your new new venture. Oh, what is considered? I've never heard of it. And then when he explained it and it's that beautiful Japanese craft where they take broken pottery and they put it back together using a precious metal like gold.
00:35:33:15 - 00:36:07:05
Unknown
And the repaired product and this is really important, is far more beautiful, and it's far more valuable than what the original piece was. And what a great metaphor to help people reframe how they see that lived experience that abuse, the trauma, the disability, the relationship breakdown, the grief, the addiction. So I with both mentoring men and heroes, I could honestly say I didn't fully appreciate the depth and the importance and and and the need.
00:36:07:05 - 00:36:33:08
Unknown
It's only later on people smarter than me have seen this and considered is just such a brilliant concept. And it's also it's a beautiful branding thing. We we, we we create these drink bottles and other things that that utilize the craft form. And there's one master in Australia, Jun Sam, that I'm aware of and with arrange for him to run craft workshops.
00:36:33:10 - 00:36:55:16
Unknown
We we had a project in New South Wales to connect seniors to address loneliness and isolation. So we got him to run this workshop, which we did out at Narrabeen. And everyone has given this broken pottery. And then he guides you through the process of filing and then and then gluing and then filling with gold. And the place is packed.
00:36:55:19 - 00:37:27:05
Unknown
And the survey results were everyone loved doing it, but something much deeper happened. People have been given broken pieces and subconsciously that could relate back to their lived experience. And then they put in these broken pieces together, and then they would proudly hold up this finished product. And it was, yeah, at the back of my mind, I'm trying to work out some way we can mass run that sort of workshop.
00:37:27:05 - 00:37:54:04
Unknown
I think it's so it's so key to helping improve a number of things, including mental health. I've done one of those workshops in England a number of years ago. And Europe's. There's there's something extraordinary in the the physical creation of broken pieces into something that's now together. And because you use user, you're using, not glue using something else to bring it together.
00:37:54:06 - 00:38:15:01
Unknown
Oh, this looks very beautiful. And and you're right that the metaphors that just are so obvious as you're doing it, even if no one talks about it being a metaphor for something else, you just know it. Yeah, I spent a fair bit of time in hospital last year at the San Hospital in Sydney, and this same John Sand, who ran the workshops was in there.
00:38:15:02 - 00:38:39:05
Unknown
He's in there. He had prostate stuff done and had some heart stuff done. And the hospital staff said, we're going to turn you into a man with the scars. And he it's the most beautiful piece I've ever seen of craft. It's in a display cabinet there, and all the way along the wall behind is a diversity of people of ages and cultures and genders.
00:38:39:07 - 00:39:02:14
Unknown
They've all got something in common. They've all got a scar down the center of their chest. And it's just it's beautiful. And just when I'm there and then to be able to take go down there with my grandkids, actually, and just show them the bowl and experience that it's just just beautiful. Again, another one of those moments for me, the hospital that it was at just happened to have this there.
00:39:02:16 - 00:39:28:13
Unknown
So here is the organization so inspired by by Japanese pottery and the whole notion behind it. He got 70 people in the organization volunteers. And what do you do? So we record stories not as high tech as this part, but mostly, online. We've done about 400 stories now. So we published those stories through video and audio podcast.
00:39:28:15 - 00:39:58:22
Unknown
We had a relationship with Vision Australia, and we published the stories or broadcaster stories across our national radio network. We put the stories into books. So we've done six books so far and another two are underway. We run events, we ran as part of the Connecting Seniors program I mentioned before. We actually hosted a talent quest for seniors, and I made my debut as a stand up comedian, and it was very different to what I thought it was going to be.
00:39:58:24 - 00:40:33:08
Unknown
Oh, I can share. I guess in hindsight it was funny, but, yeah. I mean, you see comedians talking, there's like an audience there. We we invited people from retirement villages and all sorts of shapes. So all the people come in wheelchairs and zimmer frames and very different audience. And I had my, opening line, which may have been inappropriate, but I, my opening line was along the lines, well, look, this is my debut.
00:40:33:08 - 00:40:50:15
Unknown
And I thought, well, look, I better check with the comedian for any pointers. And he said, oh, it's funny you should ask me. And I just did a show in an aged care home. I said I had to go. He said, well, they didn't laugh much, but there wasn't a dry seat in the house by the time I finished.
00:40:50:17 - 00:41:21:23
Unknown
And I think and I look at the audience and I've been there, I'd be there. And I think the audience that I just went on when I'm from there, but, it was a great event. I'd love to turn this into a national thing. I, I followed a guy playing the piano accordion and and, anyway, it was so the lesson is never follow a piano chords.
00:41:22:00 - 00:41:47:16
Unknown
A baby. Think about the audience. In fact, I don't know if you've ever read on those book. Yes. Classic book. And he talked about his debut as a comedian, and he it was the Vietnam Veterans. And he walked out today. And the guy in the front row kept his fingers. So for the for listeners who don't know, Andor is a Vietnamese refugee to Australia and a brilliant comedian.
00:41:47:16 - 00:42:12:05
Unknown
And his book is the happiest refugee, I think. Isn't it a great artist as well? He's become a great visual artist. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of comedians is a lovely movie at the moment called is this is this thing on Will Arnett and Laura Dern? But they are there. It's a it's an adaption of a true story of an English comedian, Liverpool based comedian who he and his wife split up.
00:42:12:09 - 00:42:31:19
Unknown
And in his spare time, he out of sheer loneliness, he turned up at a comedy club. And he was. And he really wanted a drink, but he had no money. And they said, well, you'd have paid 20 pounds to get into the club or nothing if you go on stage, see, I've got no money anyway. So. So he ended up having his debut by accident, right.
00:42:31:20 - 00:42:48:03
Unknown
And thought, okay, started telling jokes on the spot about his divorce and his ex-wife or upcoming divorce and enjoyed it. I'm back again the next week. He went back the next week and started started learning the craft. About three months later. He's on stage and out of the blue. His ex-wife and her friends are having a night out in town.
00:42:48:05 - 00:43:01:18
Unknown
They turn off the gov and he's on stage and he suddenly recognizes her in the audience keeps going and they got back together again, making money.
00:43:01:20 - 00:43:24:00
Unknown
Speaking of family, can I shift the conversation a bit? You've alluded to this. You've mentioned your darling wife a few times, and you've also mentioned you're someone who is 120% at everything you do. You are a gold medalist or world level at tennis. You play squash. You're a guy who's done 5500km on an indoor bike. So you you are full steam ahead.
00:43:24:02 - 00:43:47:21
Unknown
And you said to me that the years you've made Viking level sacrifices over the years, as you're contributing to society, how do you balance the impact between all that you do for everybody else and what happens for your family? Very poorly? I don't know what the answer is, but I there's so many things I blessed with my life.
00:43:47:21 - 00:44:23:02
Unknown
There's so many things I love doing. I feel considered heroes, which is my passion. I love doing that. And sometimes I've made I've missed family functions. This weekend is a really great example, and I've gone back the other way. So my son rang me and he said, look, I've got some tickets to the Swans match tomorrow and normally I work Saturday and Sunday, but no, I'm going to go to the Swans bench and one of my granddaughter, I've got 13 grandkids.
00:44:23:04 - 00:44:49:13
Unknown
One of them's birthday is on, on and Sunday they're all going to the zoo. Granddad, you want to come along to the zoo? So. And I think he was now but yeah. So it's I don't know the answer but this I wish I often think this 2 or 3 of me and my wife who still works, she's a paid nurse because I'm not earning any income from what I do.
00:44:49:15 - 00:45:13:11
Unknown
There's an expectation. Oh. You're home. Can you do the laundry, watch the windows vacuum. And she doesn't see what I'm doing as I think she sees the meaning in it. But it's. Why am I doing this and that? Yeah. So it's a really hard question trade off, isn't it? And I haven't got a good answer for it. It's a, it's one of the underbelly of passion, isn't it, when you're so consumed by passion there is another belly.
00:45:13:11 - 00:45:40:17
Unknown
And I don't think there is a right answer. By the way, you have received a lot through your contribution. As you said to me, I have moved from someone who might have been a ready fire aim to someone who's gone from these are your words judgment jerk to replace him with love. You also received an Order of Australia and for listeners who are not in Australia, that's the equivalent of being knighted by the Queen or something like that.
00:45:40:18 - 00:45:49:24
Unknown
It's in that kind of recognition. Where were you when you when you were you got to notice. So what was your initial reaction?
00:45:50:01 - 00:46:19:02
Unknown
So I guess not surprisingly, when I go away on holiday, I usually take my laptop with me and continue to work and but trying to appease my wife at the same time. So we decided we'd go from on a cruise from Sydney through New Zealand to a why we're out in the middle of the the Pacific Ocean. Of course, I'm on a zoom call and are running things and some and I said, oh, an email just came in.
00:46:19:02 - 00:46:39:09
Unknown
I said, look, someone's spamming me. There's a thing about an OEM or something like that. And the email was all structured wrong. I said, oh, I've just delete it. And someone said, hold on it. And they went and checked and it was it wasn't spam, it was. It was real. And it turned out I had no idea.
00:46:39:11 - 00:47:03:01
Unknown
But two independent groups, one through mentoring men connections and one through Heroes Connection, they don't still don't know that they both had put this forward. And Julie and Lisa, who was across both, had apparently been a support. So yeah, it was an am. I called it an old angry man. But but coming back to the question you asked before.
00:47:03:03 - 00:47:32:24
Unknown
So they invited us to government House, which I'd never been to, but it's like a beautiful Parliament House. Government House on the on the harbor. Kiribati. Yeah. And my wife came along and I thought it was for her the chance to be there in this place. And there was a lot of pomp and ceremony. She spoke to the governor, and in fact, there's these beautiful gardens with this fountain in the middle.
00:47:33:00 - 00:48:02:10
Unknown
And my wife, who's her father's Italian flower grower. So she's big in gardens. She asked the governor and she looked after the gardens herself. And I don't know why she asked that, but the governor. Delightful person I know, but my grandkids playing the fountain there and all that sort of stuff. So that was for me. That was the best thing about that, was that my wife got an opportunity to get some recognition, I guess, for the sacrifices she'd made so I can do what I wanted to do.
00:48:02:12 - 00:48:28:03
Unknown
No one has ever achieved anything worthwhile without an extraordinary, supportive partner. Yeah. So you I appreciate how you recognize your wife in that, in that regard. You you mentioned this earlier, so I'd like to jump to this. You've been very open publicly about your experiences of cancer and melanoma and tumors. Some people may not know this. You're also big fan of the beaches.
00:48:28:05 - 00:48:57:15
Unknown
Particularly the song Staying Alive. I love the bees, but not staying alive. I don't like that disco stuff. Yeah, but you did held. You know, you have held a staying Alive party recently because you are still alive. Yeah, yeah. I, I spent huge amounts of time outdoors playing tennis, getting burnt, even putting. We used to put, lotion on to get a good tan, and it just nuts.
00:48:57:17 - 00:49:15:24
Unknown
And say that again for people who isn't, like, baby type lotion, coconut oil. And I think it was copper tan with like, these brands that you would put on to make the sunburn happen quicker. I grew up, I grew up in Ireland where we don't have a lot of sun. Yeah, but that's what we used to do, and I.
00:49:15:24 - 00:49:42:13
Unknown
I forgot indeed said that we would put on an icon lotion just to get sunburnt, hoping we might get a tan. Yeah. I remember having blisters on my on my shoulders and my my Nana sticking a needle through them to. So then fast forward and more and more skin stuff came up. And you go every, every maybe every year now a lot more frequently.
00:49:42:13 - 00:49:57:14
Unknown
And they they would freeze this stuff off. And I've had the trifecta. The melanoma always sounds like food, the basal one and the squamous cell. So they've cut these things out. And then about
00:49:57:16 - 00:50:19:00
Unknown
5 or 6 years ago something came up here and I, I booked in to see the skin specialist, but he canceled each time he was sick. And ultimately, when I get checked out, the doctor looked at it and said, I think it's okay, but I'll take a biopsy. And then it came back that it was melanoma. I was just about to head on a bike ride.
00:50:19:02 - 00:50:40:20
Unknown
Doctor rang me and said, can I see you? And I said I was an urgent, I want to go. She said it is urgent. So I went in and they they took out a chunk here and they take out a margin. And then the advice was we've got it. And then 2 or 3 years later, suddenly came up here, went and biopsied, and there was this growth here.
00:50:40:22 - 00:51:03:24
Unknown
And that was far more serious. So it's gone. I'm not an expert on the stages, but it's gone to stage, I think stage three or whatever. So they the procedure, they, they operated and cut me down through here, took out all the lymph nodes in here. And they found a small cancer in the thyroid which they took out and then a done deal.
00:51:03:24 - 00:51:33:07
Unknown
And I'm still getting brain MRI and Pet scans and all that, and decided to put me on a immunotherapy, which has been an absolute game changer for melanoma. So I was on that for 12 months. No sign of any cancer through all the scans when I finished the 12 months of therapy. They keep doing the scans, and then the second scan showed stuff happening in my lungs.
00:51:33:09 - 00:52:00:04
Unknown
They did a biopsy and it's melanoma now in my lungs and other parts of my body. And so they then have another immunotherapy drug. The first one is called niveaux which is a common one. Low side effects, highly successful for melanoma. It didn't work properly for me. Then when I think called epi, which is like a sledgehammer, coped with the first two doses of that.
00:52:00:04 - 00:52:29:24
Unknown
No side effects. The third dose. I just got the worst case of collided said scene. So the, the guy was saying, when they did the scan, my, it's just a bleeding, ulcerated mess. I dropped 20 kilos in six weeks. Didn't realize I was in hospital. I lost her ability to walk properly, through nerve damage.
00:52:30:01 - 00:52:52:08
Unknown
And then I was fading away. The good news there at that point, though, they said it looks like the IP has worked and your your melanomas that the, the the cancer growths have stopped. But then they found some tumors in my brain. So then it was massive doses of steroids and then a couple of other infusions.
00:52:52:08 - 00:53:17:15
Unknown
I don't know what it was to try and stop the colitis because they're going to die from lack of substance. And, the scans of the brain was melanoma, and I guess there was a couple low points. But I've never I've never felt stressed. I've never felt fear, never felt anger. Don't know, maybe come back to that.
00:53:17:17 - 00:53:40:24
Unknown
And in December of last year, I met with the oncologist and he told me the body oncologist, and he told me what was going on. And I said, well, okay, there's no point giving me this, this thing, this sledgehammer anymore. And I said to him, when should I book in to see you again? And he said, Ian, there's no point booking in to see me again.
00:53:41:00 - 00:54:03:23
Unknown
There's nothing in mainstream medicine we can do for you. That's that's not a conversation you want to have. No, it's still okay. And, he said the best hope for you is to go on a clinical trial, but there's nothing available at the moment. And I met with the brain oncologist and he said, look, we can radiate your brain or the tumors in your brain.
00:54:04:04 - 00:54:26:15
Unknown
And there was a 70% chance that will work. They can't operate because some of the tumors are in the center of the brain. So I had the brain radiation in February this year, I got a phone call from the the clinical trial specialist, Professor Georgina Long, and went and saw her. She wanted some extra scans done so before she met with.
00:54:26:16 - 00:54:46:02
Unknown
So I had the scans. And then when she went through it turns out the melanoma had a mutated and that's why the other stuff didn't work. And she went through all the clinical trial options and then ruled every one of them out. There's I didn't qualify for any of those. And I said, well, what do you think I should do?
00:54:46:03 - 00:55:11:08
Unknown
And she said, well, you could go back on the sledgehammer that nearly killed you like, but that afternoon I met with the brain oncologist. He had the results of the scans. He said, the brain radiation has worked. The tumors aren't growing, I don't think. I think some of them stay around forever. They just don't active anymore. And then 3 or 4 days later, I was leading with the GP.
00:55:11:10 - 00:55:37:03
Unknown
He had access to the Pet scan, the Pet scans, the one they put radioactive stuff in. He said. And I'm not an oncologist, but you're in remission. But by what I see. So beauty. Okay, stay in a life party and and, I, I hate to be yourself, but it was awesome. We had, like, 70 or 80 people there, and my all my family was there, and my wife's up dancing to staying alive.
00:55:37:03 - 00:56:04:21
Unknown
And look, there's a, there's so much confusion around this. And when lots of well-meaning people, when you get, you know, go vegan. No, eat, go eat meat. Go walk barefoot on the grass, run a cold shower, take these pills, take this stuff. And when I finished up. And this is going to sound nuts, but I want to stress.
00:56:04:23 - 00:56:25:13
Unknown
The dominant emotion I had through all my time in hospital was just gratitude. I remember vividly standing in the shower one Sunday morning and I had a few bad falls. I'm holding on to the the the bar there, weeping toys, tears of gratitude for the hospital, for the hot water, for my family and all that sort of stuff.
00:56:25:19 - 00:56:44:11
Unknown
And it probably didn't help my case, but I would have my computer there. I was running zoom meetings. They'd be sticking cannula in while I'm on and the doctors would come in. We can't be that sick. Have you telling my wife if he's still doing this? But I'm. I'm fading away. I've got photographs of you here, and you look like you're fading.
00:56:44:13 - 00:57:05:05
Unknown
It's a beautiful autograph of you with your youngest grandchild. Yeah, and you definitely are 20 or 30 kilos in that photo. Lighter than you are today. So you clearly were not. Well. No. And so I wasn't aware of it. I, I got this thing called drop foot, which is due to nerve damage, and it's progressively getting better as I exercise.
00:57:05:07 - 00:57:34:10
Unknown
Can I just share what I'm doing now? And I, I'm really careful about giving anyone advice on on cancer treatments, but I want to share this. I so first off it's Christian. Are lots of people prayed and for my welfare and health, the attitude I had through this, like I pointed a co-CEO of heroes, but I just kept working all the way through.
00:57:34:11 - 00:58:07:04
Unknown
We launched new podcast series while I was there and new books. I had lots of visitors come in. I supported. I met a guy in India who was struggling mentally, met him through LinkedIn, had a chat to him, and blow me down. A couple of weeks later, he turns up at the hospital in Sydney with a flower and took and he was going to Melbourne, but he stopped by Sydney to come and see me in hospital.
00:58:07:06 - 00:58:33:16
Unknown
Yeah. So the what? Lots of people support him. He kept doing the work. A friend said, try this molecular hydrogen generator. So it's a machine that sits beside my desk. You put distilled water in and it converts into hydrogen gas, which you breathe in through your nose. I keep working, I go to a hyperbaric chamber every week.
00:58:33:18 - 00:58:58:16
Unknown
Go down to it, I don't know, 10 or 20m depth equivalent and breathing in pure oxygen. And I had another friend reach out, and I thought this was just a joke, but to take what they use for dog worming tablets. So I take Finn Bender dissolved and I've met them. It appears my cancers in remission.
00:58:58:18 - 00:59:23:11
Unknown
I've got no idea which if any of those has caused this, but I'm saying this is where I was. This is where I am now, and that's what I did. And you've stayed grateful the whole way through? Absolutely. Yeah. And now there's worse things than dying. But I'm I would love to leave a legacy. And I've got some incredibly big dreams, but around some other stuff that I.
00:59:23:11 - 00:59:49:19
Unknown
That I want to do, I love. Yeah. You said to me, I have no fear of dying as just the process I don't want to do. And I'd never heard anyone say that before. It's such a it's such a true thing, isn't it? Yeah, well, I was really in no pain throughout the, the, with the vulnerability. One of the things I learned after a couple of mishaps was the benefit of pull ups.
00:59:49:21 - 01:00:14:19
Unknown
So you got nappies, so you're not pull ups, and you hooked up to this, this thing, and you've got, like, two seconds between. Something's going to happen to it happening, and you're trying to drag this thing into the room and and, yeah, it just, it's a big, big leveler. But again, no problem. And I'd go for a walk.
01:00:14:20 - 01:00:37:20
Unknown
I'd have to have a walker around the ward. But if I saw anyone there, I just took a delight in trying to brighten up their day and just and and and and share that. So it was a in many ways. I mean, do I wish it hadn't happened? Absolutely. But I'm using that moment to it's given me new insights that I love to use.
01:00:37:22 - 01:01:03:00
Unknown
Going. You have reached a you may disagree with me, but I would suggest you reached a sage like stage of life. Now that you've done everything that you've done, and I've and you speak at fundraisers and you speak in videos, and I've heard you tell lots of stories, you have a story about the meaning of life set in Greece and Aristotle that I when I first heard you, you tell this, it really resonated.
01:01:03:01 - 01:01:27:03
Unknown
And I think it's I think it's a lovely way to round off all of your insights and learnings that we've shared today. Yeah. Well said. I try and do as many things with my wife as we can, and we had this opportunity to do a bike riding tour in the Greek islands. So we're on this. I call it a pirate ship.
01:01:27:05 - 01:01:48:15
Unknown
There's about, I guess, 20 people also on the on the boat, you go round to a Greek island, they would unload all the boats at their bikes and you would follow this tour guide. Norway's clarified there's a lot of status with bike riding. We pedal the tour guide, a young guy that was on his e-bike. But anyway, so we follow, follow them around.
01:01:48:21 - 01:02:24:00
Unknown
And one day we got this up this hill to and there's a vantage point and he he gave this us all around him. And he points to an island in the distance that was owned by the Anastas family. He starts telling us the success story of Aristotle Onassis. And for those who don't know, his family at one stage were impoverished and he got into the black market of tobacco, made a lot of money, and then he had some innovation around packaged cigarettes and made a lot more.
01:02:24:01 - 01:02:54:13
Unknown
And then he got into shipping, and, made even more money and I believe, became the richest man in the world. And the Americans weren't sure on the tour, weren't sure who he was until they the guy then mentioned he married JFK widow, and he finished off by saying he's telling this a success story. But then at the end said Onassis was rumored to have said, people say money can buy love.
01:02:54:15 - 01:03:12:20
Unknown
I would tell you it's not true on the richest man in the world, and I've never found true love and part of the family. There's a lot of tragedy with early deaths and things like that, and I couldn't help myself. I put up my hand in front of all these other. I said, what a question. Your definition of success.
01:03:12:22 - 01:03:39:20
Unknown
So you've got a guy who's sold a product that's killed millions of people and caused untold damage to me, and smaller and never found true love. I would argue that someone blue collar worker, someone impoverished, with strong, loving relationships is far more successful than Anastas was. And that's that's my definition now. And when we got back in Sydney, I woke up jet lagged.
01:03:39:22 - 01:04:01:21
Unknown
And this thing around our best life, the meaning of life, if you like, kept resonating and I think in terms of pictures. So I created this PowerPoint slide and I've got our best life on one side. And I've defined that where we use our skills and experiences to positively impact the world. It's where we get the genuine contentment and fulfillment.
01:04:01:23 - 01:04:23:01
Unknown
And on the other side, we're born over here and we start heading towards our best life. And above it, there's this word map of the things that impact our lives. And many of these things are negative. We get abused, we get sick, we have relationships break down, we experience grief. And one of the biggest things we get sucked into a materialistic world.
01:04:23:03 - 01:04:46:08
Unknown
The bigger house, the bigger car, whatever. And we we don't focus on moving towards our best life. We focus on moving to a life that's been someone externally has encouraged us to go down. And I say to people, look, I've produced this just for myself, but if I encourage you to 10s take a step back and think about what would your best life look like?
01:04:46:10 - 01:05:07:09
Unknown
You're heading towards that, and I've got some quotes at the bottom, but the one that stands out to me is the Mark Twain quote. The two most important days of your life, the day you're born, and then the day you work out why. And for me, that day was a 10th of September 2013. Ian, thank you for being here.
01:05:07:11 - 01:05:18:00
Unknown
I love chatting to you. You've got so much more to do in your life. I think we have to bring you back next year and the year after year after year, what you've done. Thanks, but I really appreciate the opportunity to to talk to you.
