Imposter Syndrome Gets Worse the Better You Get | Erin Buttermore

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The better you get at your job, the more certain you become that you have fooled everyone.

If you have ever pulled something off and then quietly decided it did not count, because you worked too hard for it or because it came too easily, this one is for you.

Erin Buttermore is an executive coach doing a PhD on the imposter phenomenon at the University of Sydney. She calls it a flawed accounting system. Your wins never make it into evidence. Your mistakes always do. She is the first guest we have ever invited back.

She does not tell you to be more confident. She is honest that she runs the same accounting on herself, PhD included. What changes is the fuel. Shame, she says, is a very expensive fuel source, and self-compassion is the tool most capable men throw out because of the packaging.

If you have been calling your distress discipline, start here.

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Top Moments

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Meet the Guest

Erin Buttermore

Erin Buttermore is a strategy consultant and executive coach. She is a PhD candidate at the University of Sydney, where her research looks at the psychological mechanisms behind the imposter phenomenon, including the part organisations play in feeding it.

Her coaching work sits with senior leaders and knowledge workers who look successful from the outside and privately discount every win. She is candid that she was drawn to the research because she recognised the same pattern in herself.

This is her second appearance on Don't Let the Old Man In, and she is the first guest the show has invited back. Her first conversation with Pod is one of the show's most watched episodes.

LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-buttermore/

Integral Global profile — https://www.integral.global/people/erin-buttermore

• Episode Transcript

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  People don't feel like imposters

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  because they're not capable.

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  It is actually their capability

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  that makes them feel like imposters.

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  The higher you get, the more pressure there is,

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  the more ambiguity there is.

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  And ambiguity is rocket fuel for imposter feelings.

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  We'll say that again.

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  I think we mistake distress for discipline.

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  Shame is a very expensive fuel source.

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  That's extraordinary, what you just said.

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  Erin, welcome back to the podcast,

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  good to see you again.

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  Thank you, Pod, it's great to see you too.

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  You're the first person we've been invited back

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  and that's not a coincidence

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  because your episode recorded last year, 2025,

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  has been one of our most watched episodes ever.

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  I think the word imposter might have something to do with it

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  and then the word Erin Buster might have been the other part to it.

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  So, so glad to have you back.

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  Oh, it's a huge honour.

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  Thank you for having me.

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  Oh, you're welcome.

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  So, for folks who might be tuning into this episode for the first time,

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  last time we had you on, we discussed the foundations of

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  what I was calling imposter syndrome

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  and you corrected me to say it's imposter phenomena

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  and why it's a phenomena, not a syndrome.

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  We discussed why it differs in men and women.

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  We discovered this notion of toxic attribution

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  in terms of how people think about our success was a bit of luck

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  but failure was my fault.

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  And I've heard of you actually repeat that back to me

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  since going, I do that.

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  I didn't know I did that until I heard Erin Buttermore say it.

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  And then you finished with something that had a quite profound effect

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  on many listeners and that was you said,

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  imposter feelings are the price we pay for growth,

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  which was a huge comment you made

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  and a lot of people messaged us after going,

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  that makes sense to me now that I've heard her say that.

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  Oh, that's wonderful.

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  I'm so glad it's resonated with people.

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  Yeah, absolutely.

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  So, this time I thought, let's go a bit deeper.

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  Let's go into the notion of capability.

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  I know this is part of your study

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  and this is part of your expertise,

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  which I'm really happy with.

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  The idea that a lot of folks who listen to the show

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  are very capable, very, very competent.

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  Many of them are very successful

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  in terms of business founders or senior leaders

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  or they have their own manufacturing

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  or trading business or something,

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  or indeed they're just successful

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  in whatever way you define that.

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  So, I also know that capacity and capability

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  is a two-edged sword for many of us

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  and for some people, the more capable I am,

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  the more fraudulent I actually feel.

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  And for some of us, the more capable people tell me I am,

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  the more I actually work to hide it,

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  which is perverse irony,

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  but I've seen that happen enough times.

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  So, I'd love to talk to you about that.

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  So, with that in mind,

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  what will our audience get from this conversation today?

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  Well, today we're going to be talking about

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  a really curious paradox that you've touched on,

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  that people don't feel like imposters

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  because they're not capable.

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  It is actually their capability

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  that makes them feel like imposters.

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  So, if you're the kind of person

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  who responds to your imposter feelings

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  by over-functioning, over-delivering,

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  rushing to the rescue, working extra hard,

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  doing everything that you need to do,

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  then you say to yourself,

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  well, that didn't count

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  because I had to work twice as hard

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  as anybody else to do that.

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  Wow. Wow.

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  Or on the flip side,

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  if you're the kind of person who procrastinates

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  or self-handicaps,

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  who leaves yourself an escape hatch

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  and still somehow pulls it off,

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  you say, well, that didn't count either

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  because I didn't do it properly.

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  So, you can't get it right either way.

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  You're always stuck

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  and your success never quite makes it

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  into admissible evidence.

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  And that means that you've got

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  a flawed accounting system.

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  I love that.

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  I really love what you just said.

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  I had a conversation

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  at about 6 a.m. this morning

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  with a colleague of mine

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  who is in England

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  and she and I are both

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  on this doctoral programme we're doing together.

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  And in my mind,

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  she is the most articulate,

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  intelligent person in our group, full stop,

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  if not in my whole circle of people I know.

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  You self-excluded, of course, Erin,

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  when I say that.

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  And she was just talking about

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  almost what you just said,

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  the amount of time she has spent

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  in the last couple of weeks

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  doing X, Y and Z

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  and feeling like she's got nowhere

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  and really talking down the effort

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  because the outcome,

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  I've put in so much effort

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  and the outcome's only X,

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  which is exactly what you said.

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  Her accounting system is flawed.

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  And she does say

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  that she feels like an imposter

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  most of the time,

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  which at least she understands that.

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  But that time and effort and outcome

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  is a very interesting dynamic

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  that you just mentioned.

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  Yes, I see it so often.

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  So what happens when,

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  like you said, imposter feelings

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  are the price we pay for growth.

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  A lot of us in midlife are not beginners.

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  We are well on our way.

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  And in fact, we may well be at the top of our,

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  whatever our game is,

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  whatever game that is.

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  So what happens when that growth just doesn't stop?

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  Well, I think the imposter feelings

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  get more nuanced and more sophisticated.

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  So early in your career,

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  it's pretty obvious.

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  I don't feel experienced enough.

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  I'm not good enough.

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  Someone's going to find out

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  I'm not supposed to be here.

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  At more senior levels,

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  the stakes get a lot higher.

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  So you've made your way into this job

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  that you could scarcely have imagined

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  doing a few years ago.

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  And you think you've fluked your way into it.

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  And suddenly everybody is looking to you

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  for the answers.

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  They're relying on you.

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  And you've got this inner sense

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  that there is no grown up coming

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  to rescue you.

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  So the ambiguity gets really high.

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  Early on in your career,

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  you've got all these external markers of success.

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  You've got performance reviews.

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  You've got grades.

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  You've got chartered accreditations

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  or you've got more senior people

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  giving you feedback on your performance.

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  And suddenly you are the one

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  that everyone else is looking to.

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  You're the one to make the judgment calls.

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  You're the one trying to influence a decision

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  where there's really no clear outcome.

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  And so you're hoping

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  that somebody will come

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  and rescue you from this.

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  But they won't.

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  The cavalry is not going to come charging

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  over the hillside for you.

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  You're the one sitting there in the chair.

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  And it's this terrible sense

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  of I'm responsible for everything.

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  So we kind of tell ourselves

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  that if we just get that next promotion

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  or that next credential,

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  then the imposter feelings will go away.

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  And they don't.

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  The higher you get,

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  the more pressure there is,

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  the more ambiguity there is.

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  And ambiguity is rocket fuel

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  for imposter feelings.

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  I did not know that.

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  As you're saying that,

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  I'm just thinking about

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  all the various leaders

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  that I've known over the years,

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  but particularly say the last 18 months

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  in this whole rush

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  to become an AI native business.

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  There's so many organizations around the world

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  are not just embracing AI,

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  trying to become an AI business.

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  And the context is shifting like sand everywhere.

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  The media is loud about AI driven productivity,

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  at least the job losses

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  and that hasn't quite turned out to be true yet.

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  But there's a concern with that.

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  And a lot of leaders I talk to

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  in this particular space

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  are grappling with

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  who am I to try and figure this out

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  that no one has figured this out yet.

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  I can't, therefore,

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  I can't be the person who figures that.

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  And I hadn't actually twigged

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  that kind of dealing with ambiguity

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  is actually also could be fired up by imposterism.

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  I never thought about that.

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  And Jacinda Ardern's memoirs have just come out.

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  She was prime minister of New Zealand

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  held the highest office in her country,

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  was renowned around the world.

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  And she speaks very clearly in that.

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  And I have to admit, I haven't yet read it.

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  So please don't quiz me on this too far.

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  But she does talk about imposter feelings

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  and how that held her back,

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  but also drove her forward.

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  Which is what you talk about.

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  He said imposter are the price we pay for growth.

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  If we tune into the ability

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  or the opportunity to grow,

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  that's an important caveat

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  because we don't always do that.

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  Which brings me to this notion

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  of over delivering and burning out

  239

  00:08:19.260 --> 00:08:22.270

  and the kind of a perverse loop of,

  240

  00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:25.640

  go back to your comment about accounting loops.

  241

  00:08:25.820 --> 00:08:27.700

  If we're going to exert ourselves

  242

  00:08:27.700 --> 00:08:29.720

  to over deliver to make sure

  243

  00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:31.280

  that we don't fall into the trap

  244

  00:08:31.280 --> 00:08:32.140

  of doubting ourselves

  245

  00:08:32.140 --> 00:08:33.640

  or to mitigate against that,

  246

  00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.539

  it can lead to a burnout potential issue.

  247

  00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:37.960

  Talk to me about that.

  248

  00:08:39.020 --> 00:08:42.039

  Well, capable people are very good at delivering.

  249

  00:08:42.419 --> 00:08:44.420

  They're very good at absorbing complexity.

  250

  00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:46.340

  They're good at bridging the gap

  251

  00:08:46.340 --> 00:08:47.200

  between two people

  252

  00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:49.600

  who are not communicating clearly

  253

  00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:50.980

  or multiple others

  254

  00:08:50.980 --> 00:08:52.400

  who are not communicating clearly.

  255

  00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:53.840

  They rush to the rescue.

  256

  00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:55.040

  They fix things.

  257

  00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.000

  And the organizations they work for love that

  258

  00:08:58.000 --> 00:08:59.800

  because the work gets done.

  259

  00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:02.240

  So nobody's saying to the person

  260

  00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:04.300

  who keeps showing up and over delivering,

  261

  00:09:04.740 --> 00:09:06.560

  could you please stop rescuing

  262

  00:09:06.560 --> 00:09:08.180

  that under resourced project?

  263

  00:09:08.420 --> 00:09:10.040

  They're saying, thank God you're here.

  264

  00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.920

  And so that kind of praise is addictive

  265

  00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:15.600

  and that's also dangerous

  266

  00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:18.240

  because you become useful

  267

  00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:19.320

  for the wrong reasons

  268

  00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.360

  and for very codependent reasons.

  269

  00:09:21.800 --> 00:09:22.840

  So you keep showing up,

  270

  00:09:22.900 --> 00:09:23.660

  you keep delivering,

  271

  00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:25.500

  you keep filling all the gaps.

  272

  00:09:25.700 --> 00:09:27.180

  It all falls to you.

  273

  00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:29.960

  The more capable you are,

  274

  00:09:29.980 --> 00:09:31.420

  the more people give you.

  275

  00:09:31.640 --> 00:09:33.460

  And the more you cope with that,

  276

  00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:34.980

  the more they give you.

  277

  00:09:35.220 --> 00:09:37.200

  And eventually the entire organization

  278

  00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.600

  has constructed its risk system

  279

  00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.320

  around your nervous system.

  280

  00:09:42.280 --> 00:09:44.340

  And occasionally you send up a flag

  281

  00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:46.720

  to say, this is not working.

  282

  00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:50.020

  But because it apparently is working,

  283

  00:09:50.540 --> 00:09:51.600

  you keep delivering.

  284

  00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:53.720

  They keep saying, thanks very much.

  285

  00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:54.860

  Next, please.

  286

  00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:58.060

  And it's only when you either burn out

  287

  00:09:58.060 --> 00:09:59.280

  or opt out

  288

  00:09:59.280 --> 00:10:01.060

  that the organization realizes

  289

  00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:03.100

  this key person dependency

  290

  00:10:03.100 --> 00:10:04.500

  that it's come to rely upon.

  291

  00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:06.000

  Now, in an ideal world,

  292

  00:10:06.260 --> 00:10:07.860

  you would get some schadenfreude

  293

  00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:09.480

  and see them collapse

  294

  00:10:10.140 --> 00:10:11.580

  without the structural support

  295

  00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:12.280

  of you being there.

  296

  00:10:12.580 --> 00:10:14.100

  What tends to happen in reality

  297

  00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:15.560

  is that they hire three people

  298

  00:10:15.560 --> 00:10:16.480

  to replace the role

  299

  00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:17.340

  that you've been filling

  300

  00:10:17.340 --> 00:10:19.280

  single-handedly for years.

  301

  00:10:24.340 --> 00:10:26.540

  So burnout versus self-handicap.

  302

  00:10:26.540 --> 00:10:27.920

  Is there a choice?

  303

  00:10:28.620 --> 00:10:30.580

  I think we do different things

  304

  00:10:30.580 --> 00:10:32.280

  in different situations.

  305

  00:10:33.400 --> 00:10:34.720

  But self-handicapping

  306

  00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:36.380

  is a protective mechanism.

  307

  00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:38.240

  If I don't try,

  308

  00:10:38.420 --> 00:10:39.800

  then I never have to find out

  309

  00:10:39.800 --> 00:10:41.300

  that I wasn't really good enough.

  310

  00:10:42.420 --> 00:10:44.920

  And it can look like undercommitment

  311

  00:10:44.920 --> 00:10:46.460

  or a lack of ambition.

  312

  00:10:47.660 --> 00:10:50.120

  It has an opportunity cost

  313

  00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:51.560

  attached for the person.

  314

  00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:54.620

  It has a cost to the organization

  315

  00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:56.880

  because they don't tap into the talent

  316

  00:10:56.880 --> 00:10:59.260

  that they might otherwise have done.

  317

  00:10:59.660 --> 00:11:01.400

  They have people stuck at middle levels

  318

  00:11:01.400 --> 00:11:02.820

  or leaving the job

  319

  00:11:02.820 --> 00:11:04.540

  because they do opt out

  320

  00:11:04.540 --> 00:11:05.740

  to avoid that burnout.

  321

  00:11:06.460 --> 00:11:07.440

  And people are performing

  322

  00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.240

  this mental calculus of

  323

  00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.020

  if I'm struggling at this level,

  324

  00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.540

  how could I possibly take on anymore?

  325

  00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:26.540

  And whatever platform you're listening

  326

  00:11:26.540 --> 00:11:27.780

  or watching this to,

  327

  00:11:27.980 --> 00:11:29.460

  because that helps us to keep growing.

  328

  00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:30.480

  And then it helps us

  329

  00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.660

  to give us shows like this.

  330

  00:11:31.820 --> 00:11:32.640

  Back to the episode.

  331

  00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.040

  You've talked a little bit in the past

  332

  00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:39.500

  about how folks

  333

  00:11:39.500 --> 00:11:40.820

  who are deemed to be successful

  334

  00:11:40.820 --> 00:11:43.620

  or seem to be successful by others,

  335

  00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:45.100

  they may not feel it themselves,

  336

  00:11:46.140 --> 00:11:48.260

  often interpret their own evidence

  337

  00:11:48.260 --> 00:11:48.880

  of competence

  338

  00:11:48.880 --> 00:11:50.980

  actually as incompetence.

  339

  00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:52.900

  And I was thinking

  340

  00:11:52.900 --> 00:11:53.580

  about this the other day

  341

  00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:55.900

  because a few of us in our WhatsApp group

  342

  00:11:55.900 --> 00:11:57.400

  who are doing this study together,

  343

  00:11:57.500 --> 00:11:58.200

  we're talking about

  344

  00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:59.320

  the more I'm learning,

  345

  00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:00.740

  the more I'm realizing I know nothing.

  346

  00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:02.720

  Now, there's a truth in that

  347

  00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:03.880

  because, of course, you open the door

  348

  00:12:03.880 --> 00:12:05.500

  towards a whole lot of area of study

  349

  00:12:05.500 --> 00:12:07.320

  or whatever the competency is

  350

  00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:08.240

  and you realize,

  351

  00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.000

  oh, this is a whole new area.

  352

  00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:11.140

  So, of course, I didn't know

  353

  00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:12.420

  that I didn't know.

  354

  00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:14.420

  And there's logic to that.

  355

  00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:16.140

  But for some of us in the conversation,

  356

  00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:18.200

  it felt overwhelming.

  357

  00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:21.240

  And I remember one person saying,

  358

  00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:22.640

  I just feel like I should give up

  359

  00:12:22.640 --> 00:12:24.240

  because I'm working so hard

  360

  00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.120

  and I just realizing

  361

  00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:26.940

  I'm on this hamster wheel

  362

  00:12:26.940 --> 00:12:28.460

  and I'll never get over it,

  363

  00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:30.440

  which sounds to me more

  364

  00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:31.480

  what you talk about,

  365

  00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:33.120

  which is the more evidence

  366

  00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:33.840

  of my competence

  367

  00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:35.680

  is the more evidence of my incompetence.

  368

  00:12:36.980 --> 00:12:38.600

  Yes, that's exactly right.

  369

  00:12:38.640 --> 00:12:41.640

  So if it was really hard,

  370

  00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:43.660

  then I threw too much at it.

  371

  00:12:43.660 --> 00:12:44.960

  I worked too hard.

  372

  00:12:45.380 --> 00:12:46.380

  If it was easy,

  373

  00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:47.920

  then it must have been easy.

  374

  00:12:48.280 --> 00:12:49.940

  So anybody could have done it.

  375

  00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:51.820

  If someone praises me,

  376

  00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:53.300

  they're either just being kind

  377

  00:12:53.300 --> 00:12:55.040

  or they didn't know the full story.

  378

  00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:57.340

  If I pulled it off under pressure,

  379

  00:12:57.520 --> 00:12:58.640

  well, I just got lucky.

  380

  00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:00.780

  And if I make one mistake,

  381

  00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:02.780

  that's obvious evidence

  382

  00:13:02.780 --> 00:13:04.200

  that I'm not good enough.

  383

  00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:05.600

  You sound like you've heard

  384

  00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:06.760

  that many times before.

  385

  00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:09.840

  What's the first step

  386

  00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:10.660

  when you hear that?

  387

  00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:14.460

  Well, it's to ask people

  388

  00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:16.680

  what evidence would you need

  389

  00:13:17.260 --> 00:13:19.440

  to see that you were meeting standards?

  390

  00:13:19.700 --> 00:13:21.180

  What would be enough?

  391

  00:13:22.140 --> 00:13:24.560

  If you were applying that to somebody else,

  392

  00:13:25.300 --> 00:13:26.520

  what would you say to them?

  393

  00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.260

  You wouldn't say,

  394

  00:13:28.420 --> 00:13:30.040

  oh, no, you didn't really deserve

  395

  00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:30.860

  that accolade.

  396

  00:13:30.900 --> 00:13:31.900

  You didn't do a good job

  397

  00:13:31.900 --> 00:13:32.400

  at the meeting

  398

  00:13:32.400 --> 00:13:34.240

  because you had other people helping you

  399

  00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.020

  or you worked really hard on it.

  400

  00:13:36.040 --> 00:13:36.800

  You would say, no,

  401

  00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:38.940

  you exercised your judgment.

  402

  00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:40.940

  You used your initiative.

  403

  00:13:41.040 --> 00:13:42.580

  You brought your experience.

  404

  00:13:42.860 --> 00:13:44.320

  You did what needed to be done.

  405

  00:13:44.380 --> 00:13:45.520

  You did the thing.

  406

  00:13:46.460 --> 00:13:47.060

  You did it.

  407

  00:13:47.060 --> 00:13:47.440

  Great.

  408

  00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:48.180

  Good job.

  409

  00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:50.280

  So we need to turn that lens

  410

  00:13:50.280 --> 00:13:51.300

  onto ourselves.

  411

  00:13:51.300 --> 00:13:53.460

  When you're coaching folks in this space,

  412

  00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:54.400

  I think what you just said

  413

  00:13:54.400 --> 00:13:55.580

  is really useful.

  414

  00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:57.920

  What standard would be good enough for you

  415

  00:13:57.920 --> 00:14:00.680

  or what X would be good enough for you?

  416

  00:14:00.780 --> 00:14:02.960

  When someone realizes for the first time

  417

  00:14:03.560 --> 00:14:05.440

  that, oh, I'm holding a standard

  418

  00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:06.820

  that's impossible,

  419

  00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:09.120

  or I'm holding a standard

  420

  00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.880

  that my colleagues would say to me

  421

  00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:13.960

  is just silly or stupid or whatever.

  422

  00:14:15.380 --> 00:14:16.660

  But a huge part of me also goes,

  423

  00:14:16.680 --> 00:14:17.540

  you've always done that

  424

  00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:18.380

  and you've been rewarded

  425

  00:14:18.380 --> 00:14:19.580

  and that's why you're here

  426

  00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:22.580

  is because of your ability to do that.

  427

  00:14:24.140 --> 00:14:26.340

  Yet you're in that moment

  428

  00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:27.040

  able to say to them

  429

  00:14:27.040 --> 00:14:27.980

  and that's what's causing

  430

  00:14:27.980 --> 00:14:29.700

  all of these overwhelm

  431

  00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:31.820

  or whatever else is being caused for you.

  432

  00:14:32.380 --> 00:14:34.280

  What's the step from that conversation

  433

  00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:38.700

  to them starting to let go that need

  434

  00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:41.020

  to have such huge standards

  435

  00:14:41.020 --> 00:14:42.920

  or such great outcomes

  436

  00:14:42.920 --> 00:14:45.380

  or such massive amount of contribution

  437

  00:14:45.380 --> 00:14:46.760

  or whatever the answer is?

  438

  00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.360

  I think we mistake distress for discipline.

  439

  00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:52.280

  Oh, say that again.

  440

  00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:55.580

  I think we mistake distress for discipline.

  441

  00:14:56.160 --> 00:14:57.980

  We are so hard on ourselves

  442

  00:14:57.980 --> 00:14:59.000

  and we think that

  443

  00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:00.180

  that's what we need to do

  444

  00:15:00.180 --> 00:15:01.400

  to keep us sharp.

  445

  00:15:01.780 --> 00:15:02.720

  It's to stop us

  446

  00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.500

  from becoming lazy or arrogant.

  447

  00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:05.820

  It's what gives us our edge.

  448

  00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:07.780

  It's what keeps driving us forward

  449

  00:15:07.780 --> 00:15:08.660

  to these outcomes

  450

  00:15:08.660 --> 00:15:10.580

  and yes, we do achieve the outcomes

  451

  00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:11.960

  but at what cost?

  452

  00:15:12.540 --> 00:15:14.260

  So we've internalized the message

  453

  00:15:14.260 --> 00:15:15.320

  somewhere along the line.

  454

  00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:17.340

  Perhaps our parents or our teachers

  455

  00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:20.440

  or a really overbearing sports coach

  456

  00:15:21.220 --> 00:15:22.660

  drilled this into us

  457

  00:15:22.660 --> 00:15:23.420

  when we were small

  458

  00:15:23.420 --> 00:15:24.100

  and at some point

  459

  00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:25.420

  we've taken the baton

  460

  00:15:25.420 --> 00:15:29.060

  and we have become our own inner critic

  461

  00:15:29.060 --> 00:15:30.580

  and our own worst enemy.

  462

  00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:32.820

  So we keep internalizing these messages

  463

  00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:34.040

  and telling ourselves

  464

  00:15:34.040 --> 00:15:35.820

  this is what I need to do

  465

  00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:36.840

  to be successful.

  466

  00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:39.400

  You can keep your ambition.

  467

  00:15:39.660 --> 00:15:41.640

  You can keep your high standards.

  468

  00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:43.500

  You can keep your seriousness

  469

  00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:45.460

  but you don't have to keep

  470

  00:15:45.460 --> 00:15:46.620

  the internal bullying

  471

  00:15:46.620 --> 00:15:48.180

  that you're doing to yourself.

  472

  00:15:49.400 --> 00:15:50.580

  That's a brilliant phrase.

  473

  00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:51.440

  I love that.

  474

  00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:53.420

  So you're saying that

  475

  00:15:53.420 --> 00:15:54.720

  at a certain point of our life

  476

  00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:55.740

  we have to realize

  477

  00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:57.240

  we are the people

  478

  00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:58.700

  causing our own distress

  479

  00:15:59.420 --> 00:16:01.200

  in proceeds of

  480

  00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.320

  in fact to come as discipline

  481

  00:16:03.740 --> 00:16:06.540

  and we can also achieve discipline

  482

  00:16:06.540 --> 00:16:08.540

  without being our biggest distress causer.

  483

  00:16:09.400 --> 00:16:10.420

  That's right.

  484

  00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:11.840

  To some extent

  485

  00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:13.740

  we can never hope to do it all.

  486

  00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:15.420

  Life is not a bingo card

  487

  00:16:15.420 --> 00:16:17.360

  where you're going to stamp every box

  488

  00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:18.600

  before you finish.

  489

  00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:20.260

  You have to accept

  490

  00:16:20.260 --> 00:16:22.260

  that not everything is going to get done

  491

  00:16:22.260 --> 00:16:24.480

  and so you're probably doing more

  492

  00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:26.140

  than you need to do already.

  493

  00:16:27.060 --> 00:16:28.260

  And to add to that

  494

  00:16:28.260 --> 00:16:31.120

  the more you stride in

  495

  00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:32.160

  and over function

  496

  00:16:32.160 --> 00:16:33.840

  and take control of the room

  497

  00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.220

  the more you are depriving

  498

  00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:36.380

  the others around you

  499

  00:16:36.380 --> 00:16:38.280

  of their opportunity to shine.

  500

  00:16:39.220 --> 00:16:41.500

  I had a very wise leader once say to me

  501

  00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:43.700

  your whole focus changes

  502

  00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:45.960

  once you shift from

  503

  00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:47.500

  achieving through self

  504

  00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:49.500

  to achieving through others.

  505

  00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:53.860

  And in our individualistic society

  506

  00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:55.600

  our individualistic culture

  507

  00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.440

  it's all about being the hero

  508

  00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:58.460

  about being the person

  509

  00:16:58.460 --> 00:17:00.440

  who pulled it off single-handedly

  510

  00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:02.460

  who rescued everything.

  511

  00:17:03.040 --> 00:17:04.200

  But that's not the way

  512

  00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:05.260

  we get things done.

  513

  00:17:05.260 --> 00:17:06.480

  And when you're leading

  514

  00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.220

  at these very senior levels

  515

  00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.119

  you are leading complex systems

  516

  00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:12.280

  and it's about how you can harness

  517

  00:17:12.280 --> 00:17:13.160

  the other people

  518

  00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:15.079

  and the resources within the system

  519

  00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:16.339

  and enable them

  520

  00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:18.079

  and empower them to do their best.

  521

  00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.839

  It's not about you being the saviour

  522

  00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.140

  who comes to fix everything.

  523

  00:17:24.579 --> 00:17:26.380

  We had a niece had to add

  524

  00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:27.660

  on this show recently

  525

  00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:29.220

  and a niece is someone

  526

  00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:30.860

  who's French originally

  527

  00:17:30.860 --> 00:17:31.580

  lives in Singapore

  528

  00:17:31.580 --> 00:17:33.120

  a very successful entrepreneur

  529

  00:17:33.120 --> 00:17:33.840

  in his own right.

  530

  00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:35.520

  When he sold his business

  531

  00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:37.420

  he had operated in 35 countries

  532

  00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:38.460

  before he sold it.

  533

  00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:39.600

  And then for a range of reasons

  534

  00:17:39.600 --> 00:17:40.400

  he moved to Singapore

  535

  00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.420

  which is where he lives now.

  536

  00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:43.580

  And he does a lot of work

  537

  00:17:43.580 --> 00:17:45.440

  with CEOs and founders

  538

  00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:46.580

  and a range of different things

  539

  00:17:46.580 --> 00:17:47.600

  but particularly folks

  540

  00:17:47.600 --> 00:17:50.760

  who are in the 50 plus age category

  541

  00:17:50.760 --> 00:17:52.000

  which is why we had him on the show

  542

  00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.380

  because they're moving into

  543

  00:17:53.380 --> 00:17:55.060

  a different phase of leadership legacy.

  544

  00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:57.060

  But he made a comment

  545

  00:17:57.060 --> 00:17:59.080

  that I kind of was aware of

  546

  00:17:59.080 --> 00:18:00.420

  but I hadn't thought of bad

  547

  00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:01.620

  and it talks about what you're saying.

  548

  00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:05.220

  He referenced a range of different books

  549

  00:18:06.120 --> 00:18:07.880

  Good to Great as example

  550

  00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.140

  or Seven Habits

  551

  00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:13.000

  or those kind of famous books.

  552

  00:18:13.820 --> 00:18:14.680

  And his point was

  553

  00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:17.500

  all written by white Anglo-Saxon men

  554

  00:18:18.020 --> 00:18:20.280

  in their 30s or early 40s.

  555

  00:18:21.260 --> 00:18:22.380

  And his point is

  556

  00:18:22.380 --> 00:18:24.740

  they were all still in achievement mode

  557

  00:18:24.740 --> 00:18:27.220

  when they're writing about leadership

  558

  00:18:27.800 --> 00:18:29.600

  which became the way to lead

  559

  00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:31.120

  for a long time

  560

  00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:32.580

  because they hadn't moved into

  561

  00:18:32.580 --> 00:18:35.440

  the notion of leading through others

  562

  00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:36.380

  as being the biggest

  563

  00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:37.600

  most successful way to lead.

  564

  00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:39.920

  And when I step back and thought about it

  565

  00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:41.680

  whilst I think the messages

  566

  00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:42.680

  that come through

  567

  00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.220

  the race books you talked about

  568

  00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:46.340

  are still relevant of course

  569

  00:18:46.340 --> 00:18:48.040

  but there's a message lost

  570

  00:18:48.040 --> 00:18:50.220

  which is this is not all about you

  571

  00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:53.060

  this can be about the wider we

  572

  00:18:53.060 --> 00:18:53.960

  and then the message

  573

  00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:55.560

  that you're talking about is

  574

  00:18:55.560 --> 00:18:56.780

  and actually the wider we

  575

  00:18:56.780 --> 00:18:57.740

  can take a lot of distress

  576

  00:18:57.740 --> 00:18:58.400

  off your shoulders

  577

  00:18:58.400 --> 00:18:59.660

  if you allow it to.

  578

  00:19:00.260 --> 00:19:01.000

  That's right.

  579

  00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:02.380

  It's like you're trying to be

  580

  00:19:02.380 --> 00:19:03.680

  the conductor of the orchestra

  581

  00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:05.540

  and play every single instrument

  582

  00:19:05.540 --> 00:19:06.900

  all at the same time.

  583

  00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:08.380

  You can't do it.

  584

  00:19:08.500 --> 00:19:09.000

  It's pretty exhausting.

  585

  00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:12.340

  You mentioned the word cost

  586

  00:19:12.340 --> 00:19:12.920

  a few minutes ago

  587

  00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:14.760

  you said the cost for the individual

  588

  00:19:14.760 --> 00:19:17.700

  is the physical or overwhelmed cost

  589

  00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:19.660

  the cost for the organization

  590

  00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:21.980

  is often other people

  591

  00:19:21.980 --> 00:19:23.980

  don't get a chance to step up

  592

  00:19:23.980 --> 00:19:26.060

  or there's a single point of dependency

  593

  00:19:26.060 --> 00:19:28.020

  or there's a single point

  594

  00:19:28.020 --> 00:19:28.900

  of insurance risk

  595

  00:19:28.900 --> 00:19:30.020

  if you want to call it that.

  596

  00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:31.440

  What's the cost for the wider

  597

  00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.040

  like for the family of the person?

  598

  00:19:33.520 --> 00:19:34.020

  What's that cost?

  599

  00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:36.140

  There's a huge ripple effect.

  600

  00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:38.940

  One of the behaviors that we see

  601

  00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:40.220

  with people trying to cope

  602

  00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:41.560

  with their imposter feelings

  603

  00:19:41.560 --> 00:19:43.960

  is a constant need for reassurance

  604

  00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:45.300

  or rumination.

  605

  00:19:45.580 --> 00:19:46.500

  So they're coming home

  606

  00:19:46.500 --> 00:19:47.140

  they're pacing

  607

  00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:48.080

  they're going over

  608

  00:19:48.080 --> 00:19:49.300

  and over their decisions

  609

  00:19:49.300 --> 00:19:50.840

  or they're coming straight home

  610

  00:19:50.840 --> 00:19:52.280

  and going into their home office

  611

  00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:53.940

  and working all evening

  612

  00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:55.980

  to prepare for whatever's happening

  613

  00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:57.100

  the next day

  614

  00:19:57.100 --> 00:19:58.180

  and then they're coming out

  615

  00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:00.660

  and unloading on the spouse about it

  616

  00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:02.080

  or maybe they're getting prickly

  617

  00:20:02.080 --> 00:20:03.000

  or defensive

  618

  00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.880

  because they're feeling so tightly

  619

  00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:07.480

  wound all the time

  620

  00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.140

  that everything becomes really difficult

  621

  00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:12.220

  and it becomes pervasive.

  622

  00:20:12.280 --> 00:20:13.040

  They're waking up

  623

  00:20:13.040 --> 00:20:14.140

  in the middle of the night

  624

  00:20:14.140 --> 00:20:15.880

  they're on the family holiday

  625

  00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:17.860

  and they've brought the laptop with them

  626

  00:20:17.860 --> 00:20:19.340

  because they can't let go

  627

  00:20:19.340 --> 00:20:20.680

  of this need for control.

  628

  00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:21.740

  I'm smiling.

  629

  00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:22.720

  I'm remembering once

  630

  00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:24.060

  being asked to coach

  631

  00:20:24.060 --> 00:20:25.280

  someone who's now

  632

  00:20:26.100 --> 00:20:28.000

  in a global head of treasury role

  633

  00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.740

  in the US

  634

  00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:31.300

  in a well-known company

  635

  00:20:31.300 --> 00:20:32.740

  but when I met at first

  636

  00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:33.460

  he wasn't there

  637

  00:20:34.180 --> 00:20:35.440

  and I remember

  638

  00:20:36.100 --> 00:20:37.680

  this person asked me to

  639

  00:20:38.540 --> 00:20:39.940

  speak to his wife

  640

  00:20:39.940 --> 00:20:42.340

  for input to the coaching piece

  641

  00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:45.180

  and I had a five-minute conversation

  642

  00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:46.780

  because it's not an everyday thing

  643

  00:20:46.780 --> 00:20:47.480

  to do that

  644

  00:20:48.800 --> 00:20:51.100

  but her comment to me was

  645

  00:20:51.100 --> 00:20:53.680

  I take him on a cruise

  646

  00:20:54.520 --> 00:20:55.780

  once a year

  647

  00:20:55.780 --> 00:20:57.600

  to a particular part of the world

  648

  00:20:57.600 --> 00:20:58.340

  I said oh why

  649

  00:20:58.340 --> 00:20:59.480

  did you like that part of the world

  650

  00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:00.800

  no I hate it

  651

  00:21:00.800 --> 00:21:02.720

  I said why did he go there

  652

  00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.240

  it's the only part of the world

  653

  00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:05.880

  where he can't get phone signal

  654

  00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:10.440

  and her but your example

  655

  00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:11.300

  of family holiday

  656

  00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:12.160

  everything else

  657

  00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.140

  we go to is ruined

  658

  00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:15.000

  because of his obsession with

  659

  00:21:15.520 --> 00:21:16.800

  and just not his inability

  660

  00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:17.680

  to let go

  661

  00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:18.320

  now in his case

  662

  00:21:18.320 --> 00:21:19.340

  he was highly perfectionistic

  663

  00:21:19.340 --> 00:21:20.140

  as well as

  664

  00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:22.740

  having massive spikes

  665

  00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:23.960

  in imposterism

  666

  00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:25.700

  and quite brilliant

  667

  00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:27.600

  one of the most competent people

  668

  00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:28.080

  in the world

  669

  00:21:28.760 --> 00:21:30.100

  we think where he is today

  670

  00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:31.380

  that makes sense

  671

  00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:33.100

  but his inability to

  672

  00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:35.140

  switch off and relax

  673

  00:21:35.140 --> 00:21:37.400

  had a profound impact on his team

  674

  00:21:38.180 --> 00:21:39.680

  he had a 64 percent

  675

  00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:40.520

  turnover rate in his team

  676

  00:21:40.520 --> 00:21:42.160

  which is why I was asked to come in

  677

  00:21:42.620 --> 00:21:44.120

  but also in his family as well

  678

  00:21:44.120 --> 00:21:45.660

  so a huge report effect

  679

  00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:49.640

  yes and those traits

  680

  00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.860

  are not uncommon together

  681

  00:21:51.860 --> 00:21:53.120

  imposter feelings

  682

  00:21:53.120 --> 00:21:54.340

  perfectionism

  683

  00:21:54.340 --> 00:21:55.300

  overwork

  684

  00:21:55.300 --> 00:21:56.240

  brilliance

  685

  00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.000

  they go along together

  686

  00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:59.820

  they're enmeshed

  687

  00:21:59.820 --> 00:22:01.040

  they are

  688

  00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:03.540

  things that feed each other

  689

  00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:08.720

  what happens to the person

  690

  00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:09.580

  be it they are

  691

  00:22:09.580 --> 00:22:10.700

  in a senior leadership role

  692

  00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:12.440

  or maybe they run their own business

  693

  00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:13.380

  and they have a you know

  694

  00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:15.080

  five or ten people working with them

  695

  00:22:15.080 --> 00:22:16.880

  or maybe they're deemed to be the

  696

  00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:18.080

  you know the two I see

  697

  00:22:18.080 --> 00:22:18.820

  in the organization

  698

  00:22:18.820 --> 00:22:19.980

  because they're so competent

  699

  00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:21.580

  what happens that person

  700

  00:22:21.580 --> 00:22:22.960

  when they over function

  701

  00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.500

  for a long period of time

  702

  00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:26.080

  when they really work

  703

  00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:27.940

  massively hard to deliver

  704

  00:22:28.540 --> 00:22:30.420

  because that notions of doubt

  705

  00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:31.920

  sits there the whole time

  706

  00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.100

  well for them

  707

  00:22:33.100 --> 00:22:34.200

  it's a vicious cycle

  708

  00:22:34.260 --> 00:22:37.640

  so they have a task assigned

  709

  00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.400

  they feel the impending stress of

  710

  00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.040

  oh no I'm going to stuff it up this time

  711

  00:22:42.040 --> 00:22:43.420

  everyone's going to find out

  712

  00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:44.900

  they start overworking

  713

  00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:46.040

  and over preparing

  714

  00:22:46.040 --> 00:22:47.700

  and rushing to do everything

  715

  00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:50.240

  and it's delivered perfectly

  716

  00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:51.040

  and beautifully

  717

  00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:52.500

  and everybody praises them

  718

  00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:54.060

  and they think oh no

  719

  00:22:54.060 --> 00:22:56.180

  oh now the stakes are even higher

  720

  00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:57.840

  and I'm going to have to work even harder

  721

  00:22:57.840 --> 00:22:59.280

  and the only way I pulled that off

  722

  00:22:59.280 --> 00:23:00.900

  was burning myself out

  723

  00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:03.240

  what happens around them

  724

  00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:04.380

  is that their team

  725

  00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.280

  gets kind of shunted to the side

  726

  00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:07.760

  they're trying to do the work

  727

  00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:08.800

  and they're getting it back

  728

  00:23:08.800 --> 00:23:10.800

  with red pen all over it

  729

  00:23:10.800 --> 00:23:12.720

  because this person is over functioning

  730

  00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.480

  and showing up

  731

  00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:14.800

  and doing all of the jobs

  732

  00:23:14.800 --> 00:23:16.000

  all at once

  733

  00:23:16.520 --> 00:23:17.940

  the product is probably

  734

  00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:18.640

  it's good

  735

  00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:19.880

  but it could have been better

  736

  00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.100

  if you had the whole team doing it

  737

  00:23:22.100 --> 00:23:23.840

  it could have been an opportunity

  738

  00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:26.260

  to develop and grow others in the team

  739

  00:23:26.260 --> 00:23:27.920

  it could have been an opportunity

  740

  00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:29.720

  to bring in multiple perspectives

  741

  00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.760

  and make something bigger and better

  742

  00:23:31.760 --> 00:23:32.980

  something that's greater

  743

  00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:34.200

  than the sum of its parts

  744

  00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.240

  by harnessing all of these different

  745

  00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:37.560

  aspects of the system

  746

  00:23:38.260 --> 00:23:39.340

  and the organization

  747

  00:23:39.340 --> 00:23:40.660

  has no knowledge

  748

  00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:42.140

  that any of this has ever happened

  749

  00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:43.620

  all they see is the output

  750

  00:23:43.620 --> 00:23:45.440

  thanks so much for your work

  751

  00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.500

  great here's the next thing

  752

  00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:48.700

  on we go

  753

  00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:49.780

  what's the link

  754

  00:23:49.780 --> 00:23:50.960

  you said there's a strong link

  755

  00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.260

  between perfectionism

  756

  00:23:52.260 --> 00:23:53.780

  and imposterism

  757

  00:23:54.600 --> 00:23:55.660

  as you say that

  758

  00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:57.160

  I can imagine some of the links

  759

  00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:57.680

  as to why

  760

  00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.540

  but can you illustrate that for us

  761

  00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:01.020

  well we don't know

  762

  00:24:01.020 --> 00:24:01.880

  if it's causative

  763

  00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:02.860

  just correlated

  764

  00:24:02.860 --> 00:24:03.980

  so it could be

  765

  00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:04.980

  that you're a perfectionist

  766

  00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:05.820

  to begin with

  767

  00:24:05.820 --> 00:24:06.960

  and so you start to feel

  768

  00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:07.740

  like an imposter

  769

  00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:08.880

  because you could never

  770

  00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:10.620

  possibly meet the standards

  771

  00:24:10.620 --> 00:24:12.020

  that you have set yourself

  772

  00:24:12.580 --> 00:24:13.860

  or it could be

  773

  00:24:13.860 --> 00:24:15.360

  that you feel like an imposter

  774

  00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:15.900

  so you think

  775

  00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.020

  well if I make this absolutely perfect

  776

  00:24:18.020 --> 00:24:19.660

  then no one will ever have to know

  777

  00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:21.200

  how terrible I am at this

  778

  00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:22.980

  and for those who are not fully sure

  779

  00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:24.360

  the word perfectionism

  780

  00:24:24.360 --> 00:24:25.800

  or I'm a perfectionist

  781

  00:24:25.800 --> 00:24:26.860

  comes from the idea of

  782

  00:24:26.860 --> 00:24:28.140

  in order for me

  783

  00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:29.500

  to have

  784

  00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:31.860

  for my esteem to be a mess

  785

  00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:33.620

  for me to feel okay

  786

  00:24:33.620 --> 00:24:35.420

  for me to not be at risk

  787

  00:24:35.420 --> 00:24:36.460

  if you want to use that word

  788

  00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:38.620

  what I produce has got to be perfect

  789

  00:24:38.620 --> 00:24:39.760

  and if it's not perfect

  790

  00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:40.680

  then I am at risk

  791

  00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:42.340

  or I am less of a human being

  792

  00:24:42.340 --> 00:24:43.600

  in my eyes

  793

  00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:44.440

  but I'm concerned

  794

  00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.620

  in their eyes also

  795

  00:24:46.620 --> 00:24:47.560

  is that a fair

  796

  00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:48.380

  that's right

  797

  00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:49.860

  there is a strong fear

  798

  00:24:49.860 --> 00:24:51.120

  of being judged

  799

  00:24:51.120 --> 00:24:52.500

  from people experiencing

  800

  00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:53.680

  the imposter phenomenon

  801

  00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:56.340

  so your point is

  802

  00:24:56.340 --> 00:24:57.100

  which comes first

  803

  00:24:57.100 --> 00:24:58.020

  don't know

  804

  00:24:58.020 --> 00:25:00.220

  but the combination is pretty

  805

  00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:01.440

  pretty hard for the person

  806

  00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.080

  and their team

  807

  00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:03.020

  indeed

  808

  00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:04.920

  ambition

  809

  00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:05.880

  you said ambition

  810

  00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:07.100

  in our early life

  811

  00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:09.520

  is often about me

  812

  00:25:10.620 --> 00:25:11.860

  we've had a lot of folks

  813

  00:25:11.860 --> 00:25:13.220

  in this show talk about

  814

  00:25:13.220 --> 00:25:14.500

  their realizations that

  815

  00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:16.780

  you know 40, 45, 50

  816

  00:25:16.780 --> 00:25:18.800

  plus their mission changes

  817

  00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:20.440

  and in fact

  818

  00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:22.320

  a lot of the theme

  819

  00:25:22.320 --> 00:25:23.840

  of this show is reinvention

  820

  00:25:24.560 --> 00:25:27.420

  and therefore to actively

  821

  00:25:28.100 --> 00:25:29.580

  pursue new ambitions

  822

  00:25:29.580 --> 00:25:31.020

  as you grow older

  823

  00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.580

  what have you noticed

  824

  00:25:32.580 --> 00:25:33.920

  about ambition changing

  825

  00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.060

  from a imposterism perspective

  826

  00:25:36.060 --> 00:25:38.680

  and where does that work well

  827

  00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:39.740

  where is our concern

  828

  00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:41.000

  how do people not let go

  829

  00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:41.860

  of ambitions etc

  830

  00:25:42.820 --> 00:25:43.660

  well I think

  831

  00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:45.740

  ambition becomes more authentic

  832

  00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:46.940

  in midlife

  833

  00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:48.320

  so for the early part

  834

  00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:48.900

  of your career

  835

  00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:49.880

  you're focused on

  836

  00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:51.740

  all of these external markers

  837

  00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:52.620

  of success

  838

  00:25:52.620 --> 00:25:53.620

  get the job

  839

  00:25:53.620 --> 00:25:54.700

  get the promotion

  840

  00:25:54.700 --> 00:25:55.760

  buy the house

  841

  00:25:55.760 --> 00:25:56.780

  build the business

  842

  00:25:56.780 --> 00:25:58.020

  get results

  843

  00:25:58.560 --> 00:25:59.420

  show them

  844

  00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:00.740

  prove something

  845

  00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:02.500

  show that you are worth

  846

  00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:05.090

  what you've signed on to do

  847

  00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:07.360

  and then in midlife

  848

  00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:08.660

  we start asking ourselves

  849

  00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:10.720

  these more probing questions

  850

  00:26:11.520 --> 00:26:13.390

  was that really worth it

  851

  00:26:14.140 --> 00:26:16.520

  is it still what I really want

  852

  00:26:16.520 --> 00:26:17.860

  or have I just become

  853

  00:26:17.860 --> 00:26:19.550

  very good at getting it

  854

  00:26:21.140 --> 00:26:22.820

  am I willing to keep

  855

  00:26:22.820 --> 00:26:23.580

  the trade-off

  856

  00:26:23.580 --> 00:26:25.160

  for the next part of my life

  857

  00:26:25.860 --> 00:26:27.580

  and that's an awful

  858

  00:26:27.580 --> 00:26:29.100

  transition to go through

  859

  00:26:29.820 --> 00:26:31.240

  because some part of you

  860

  00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:32.240

  might still be clinging

  861

  00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.380

  to these past ambitions

  862

  00:26:35.100 --> 00:26:35.860

  you're thinking

  863

  00:26:35.860 --> 00:26:36.760

  I haven't filled in

  864

  00:26:36.760 --> 00:26:37.680

  my bingo card yet

  865

  00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.840

  I haven't done the thing

  866

  00:26:38.840 --> 00:26:40.060

  have I achieved enough

  867

  00:26:40.060 --> 00:26:40.920

  how do I know

  868

  00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:41.940

  if I'm successful

  869

  00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:44.040

  and then you're shifting

  870

  00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:45.000

  to things that are more

  871

  00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:45.860

  about legacy

  872

  00:26:45.860 --> 00:26:46.900

  and purpose

  873

  00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:47.620

  and passion

  874

  00:26:47.620 --> 00:26:49.120

  that may be less visible

  875

  00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:50.920

  to others around you

  876

  00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:52.060

  and it can look like

  877

  00:26:52.060 --> 00:26:53.100

  you've dropped the ball

  878

  00:26:53.100 --> 00:26:54.640

  and it can feel like

  879

  00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:55.880

  you've dropped the ball

  880

  00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.280

  but it's actually giving

  881

  00:26:57.280 --> 00:26:58.260

  a lot more purpose

  882

  00:26:58.260 --> 00:26:58.860

  and meaning

  883

  00:26:59.100 --> 00:27:02.080

  and then imposter feelings

  884

  00:27:02.080 --> 00:27:03.480

  on top of that

  885

  00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:05.260

  can make you go into

  886

  00:27:05.260 --> 00:27:06.880

  this spiral of

  887

  00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:08.620

  well none of it counted

  888

  00:27:08.620 --> 00:27:10.360

  none of it was worth anything

  889

  00:27:10.360 --> 00:27:12.400

  I faked the whole thing

  890

  00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.340

  I achieved nothing

  891

  00:27:14.340 --> 00:27:15.840

  and it means nothing

  892

  00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:17.040

  so it's kind of

  893

  00:27:17.040 --> 00:27:18.160

  globally contemptuous

  894

  00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:19.820

  you've turned it on yourself

  895

  00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:21.500

  and what I think

  896

  00:27:21.500 --> 00:27:22.980

  people need to get to

  897

  00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:24.680

  is this ability

  898

  00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:25.880

  to look at the past

  899

  00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:26.500

  and say

  900

  00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:28.200

  well I did all of that

  901

  00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:29.620

  but now I'm not sure

  902

  00:27:29.620 --> 00:27:31.000

  it was worth the cost

  903

  00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.220

  and I would choose differently now

  904

  00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:35.200

  as opposed to

  905

  00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:37.360

  it should all go in flames

  906

  00:27:37.360 --> 00:27:39.160

  and none of it meant anything

  907

  00:27:42.910 --> 00:27:44.970

  is there a sense of fantasy

  908

  00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:47.050

  what I mean by that is

  909

  00:27:47.730 --> 00:27:50.610

  if there is a

  910

  00:27:50.610 --> 00:27:51.890

  long-term buildup

  911

  00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:52.790

  of overwhelm

  912

  00:27:52.790 --> 00:27:53.710

  or tiredness

  913

  00:27:54.690 --> 00:27:55.350

  exhaustion

  914

  00:27:56.570 --> 00:27:59.270

  from you know the

  915

  00:27:59.270 --> 00:28:00.790

  using my capability

  916

  00:28:00.790 --> 00:28:02.290

  but over-functioning

  917

  00:28:02.290 --> 00:28:03.430

  to make sure I deliver

  918

  00:28:04.210 --> 00:28:05.590

  at some stage

  919

  00:28:05.590 --> 00:28:06.730

  I'm imagining

  920

  00:28:06.730 --> 00:28:08.110

  for some of us at least

  921

  00:28:08.110 --> 00:28:09.590

  there's a fantasy building up

  922

  00:28:09.590 --> 00:28:10.270

  I wouldn't be great

  923

  00:28:10.270 --> 00:28:11.450

  to not have to do this

  924

  00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:14.270

  and like how do I escape

  925

  00:28:14.270 --> 00:28:15.030

  from doing this

  926

  00:28:15.710 --> 00:28:17.530

  yet there's an equal pull to go

  927

  00:28:17.530 --> 00:28:18.250

  well the bigger card

  928

  00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:19.070

  to use your language

  929

  00:28:19.070 --> 00:28:19.750

  is not full yet

  930

  00:28:19.750 --> 00:28:21.250

  so I've got to keep going

  931

  00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:23.830

  and then there's a mixture of

  932

  00:28:25.390 --> 00:28:26.270

  guilt or

  933

  00:28:26.270 --> 00:28:27.350

  guilt from

  934

  00:28:27.350 --> 00:28:28.330

  was it worth it

  935

  00:28:28.330 --> 00:28:28.810

  because the cost

  936

  00:28:28.810 --> 00:28:29.450

  like that must be

  937

  00:28:29.450 --> 00:28:31.550

  an extraordinary mixture of

  938

  00:28:31.550 --> 00:28:32.310

  different perspectives

  939

  00:28:32.310 --> 00:28:33.790

  and emotions at the same time

  940

  00:28:33.790 --> 00:28:36.310

  gosh what a roiling maelstrom

  941

  00:28:36.310 --> 00:28:37.650

  of things to go through

  942

  00:28:37.650 --> 00:28:38.490

  all at once

  943

  00:28:38.490 --> 00:28:40.670

  and yes that escape fantasy

  944

  00:28:40.670 --> 00:28:41.790

  presents itself

  945

  00:28:41.790 --> 00:28:44.010

  but no matter how far you travel

  946

  00:28:44.010 --> 00:28:45.630

  you can't get away from yourself

  947

  00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:47.370

  so if you haven't addressed

  948

  00:28:47.370 --> 00:28:50.010

  the unhelpful pattern of behavior

  949

  00:28:50.010 --> 00:28:51.970

  it will keep cropping up

  950

  00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:52.830

  to follow you

  951

  00:28:52.830 --> 00:28:54.770

  so this idea that I can somehow

  952

  00:28:54.770 --> 00:28:56.510

  outrun the imposter feelings

  953

  00:28:56.510 --> 00:28:58.530

  I won't feel like that anymore

  954

  00:28:59.090 --> 00:29:00.490

  if you chuck in your job

  955

  00:29:00.490 --> 00:29:01.930

  and you go and live on a beach

  956

  00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:03.710

  maybe you'll be happy

  957

  00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:05.350

  maybe you'll be very hungry

  958

  00:29:05.350 --> 00:29:06.270

  maybe you'll sit there

  959

  00:29:06.270 --> 00:29:07.510

  feeling like an imposter

  960

  00:29:07.510 --> 00:29:08.630

  as a beach bum

  961

  00:29:08.630 --> 00:29:10.510

  that actually I'm not meant to be here

  962

  00:29:10.510 --> 00:29:11.970

  I'm meant to be doing something

  963

  00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:13.430

  and making a contribution

  964

  00:29:13.430 --> 00:29:16.310

  and giving my talents to the world

  965

  00:29:16.310 --> 00:29:18.130

  and people underestimate me

  966

  00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:19.350

  and I feel like an imposter

  967

  00:29:19.350 --> 00:29:20.850

  in that sense now

  968

  00:29:21.410 --> 00:29:22.910

  so I think you've got to distinguish

  969

  00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:26.010

  between this fantasy of escape

  970

  00:29:26.750 --> 00:29:29.790

  and a genuine change of direction

  971

  00:29:30.370 --> 00:29:31.710

  so ask yourself

  972

  00:29:31.710 --> 00:29:33.830

  am I running towards something

  973

  00:29:33.830 --> 00:29:36.030

  that's very meaningful to me

  974

  00:29:36.030 --> 00:29:38.010

  or am I just trying to get away

  975

  00:29:38.010 --> 00:29:39.670

  from the unpleasant feelings

  976

  00:29:39.670 --> 00:29:40.770

  they're very different scenarios

  977

  00:29:40.770 --> 00:29:41.250

  aren't they

  978

  00:29:41.250 --> 00:29:42.170

  very different

  979

  00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:43.690

  it's a classic on a Sunday night

  980

  00:29:43.690 --> 00:29:45.150

  how do you feel about going to work

  981

  00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:45.790

  the next day

  982

  00:29:45.790 --> 00:29:47.730

  or at least when we used to go to work

  983

  00:29:48.830 --> 00:29:51.070

  we don't all go to an office anymore

  984

  00:29:51.070 --> 00:29:52.490

  like we used to

  985

  00:29:52.490 --> 00:29:54.430

  but that classic sense of a Sunday evening

  986

  00:29:54.430 --> 00:29:57.330

  were you relative to

  987

  00:29:57.330 --> 00:29:59.270

  going to work tomorrow on a Monday

  988

  00:29:59.270 --> 00:30:02.190

  and is that feeling

  989

  00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:03.530

  contributing to your desire

  990

  00:30:03.530 --> 00:30:05.210

  to go and find a different job

  991

  00:30:05.910 --> 00:30:07.270

  and is a different job

  992

  00:30:07.270 --> 00:30:08.630

  something I want to move towards

  993

  00:30:08.630 --> 00:30:09.370

  to your question

  994

  00:30:09.370 --> 00:30:10.810

  versus I want to get out of here

  995

  00:30:10.810 --> 00:30:13.350

  and the second one

  996

  00:30:13.350 --> 00:30:14.770

  will drive you to looking for

  997

  00:30:14.770 --> 00:30:16.330

  a suboptimal job for sure

  998

  00:30:16.330 --> 00:30:18.650

  you're just replacing the color office

  999

  00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:19.430

  with different people

  1000

  00:30:19.430 --> 00:30:20.010

  in a different office

  1001

  00:30:20.010 --> 00:30:20.550

  that's all you're doing

  1002

  00:30:20.550 --> 00:30:21.370

  that's right

  1003

  00:30:21.370 --> 00:30:22.870

  and I think imposter feelings

  1004

  00:30:22.870 --> 00:30:24.150

  can really exacerbate

  1005

  00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:24.890

  this scenario

  1006

  00:30:24.890 --> 00:30:27.610

  because if you feel like an imposter

  1007

  00:30:27.610 --> 00:30:30.330

  you might be running to the next job

  1008

  00:30:30.330 --> 00:30:32.610

  because you're afraid of being found out

  1009

  00:30:32.610 --> 00:30:33.790

  in the one that you're in

  1010

  00:30:33.790 --> 00:30:35.290

  or on the flip side

  1011

  00:30:35.290 --> 00:30:36.870

  you might stay in something

  1012

  00:30:36.870 --> 00:30:39.290

  that's absolutely deadening to you

  1013

  00:30:40.310 --> 00:30:42.170

  because you don't want to be a beginner

  1014

  00:30:42.170 --> 00:30:43.450

  and start over again

  1015

  00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:44.430

  because it seems like

  1016

  00:30:44.430 --> 00:30:45.630

  you would never be good enough

  1017

  00:30:45.630 --> 00:30:46.670

  for that next step

  1018

  00:30:46.670 --> 00:30:47.690

  so either way

  1019

  00:30:47.690 --> 00:30:49.830

  you've got to ask yourself the question

  1020

  00:30:50.450 --> 00:30:51.470

  what would I do

  1021

  00:30:51.470 --> 00:30:53.810

  if I really believed myself to be capable

  1022

  00:30:54.150 --> 00:30:55.370

  of the next step

  1023

  00:30:56.070 --> 00:30:56.970

  what would I do

  1024

  00:30:56.970 --> 00:30:58.390

  if I really believe myself

  1025

  00:30:58.390 --> 00:31:00.130

  to be capable of the next step

  1026

  00:31:00.910 --> 00:31:02.050

  what kind of answers

  1027

  00:31:02.050 --> 00:31:03.510

  do you find people give you

  1028

  00:31:03.510 --> 00:31:04.830

  when you ask that question

  1029

  00:31:04.830 --> 00:31:07.350

  usually they start obfuscating

  1030

  00:31:07.350 --> 00:31:08.370

  it's kind of say

  1031

  00:31:08.370 --> 00:31:09.090

  debating you

  1032

  00:31:09.770 --> 00:31:11.310

  giving me a lot of reasons

  1033

  00:31:11.310 --> 00:31:13.690

  why they would not be ready

  1034

  00:31:13.690 --> 00:31:14.610

  for the next step

  1035

  00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:17.810

  so then we try to externalize it again

  1036

  00:31:17.810 --> 00:31:19.250

  and look at it objectively

  1037

  00:31:19.250 --> 00:31:21.270

  so if you had this CV

  1038

  00:31:21.870 --> 00:31:24.130

  from this man in his 50s

  1039

  00:31:24.130 --> 00:31:26.190

  who has done all of these things

  1040

  00:31:26.190 --> 00:31:28.170

  and you were considering him

  1041

  00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:29.090

  for a role

  1042

  00:31:29.090 --> 00:31:30.830

  doing something or other

  1043

  00:31:31.430 --> 00:31:32.770

  what would you think

  1044

  00:31:32.770 --> 00:31:34.290

  if you were on the interview panel

  1045

  00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:36.870

  would you choose this person

  1046

  00:31:37.550 --> 00:31:38.710

  and often they say

  1047

  00:31:38.710 --> 00:31:39.870

  well yes but

  1048

  00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:44.010

  it's hard to let go of these feelings

  1049

  00:31:44.610 --> 00:31:45.490

  they're serving

  1050

  00:31:45.490 --> 00:31:48.550

  this self-protective mechanism for us

  1051

  00:31:49.350 --> 00:31:50.790

  remind us for folks

  1052

  00:31:50.790 --> 00:31:51.890

  who didn't do the first time

  1053

  00:31:51.890 --> 00:31:53.150

  because you discussed this at length

  1054

  00:31:53.150 --> 00:31:54.590

  the first time we had you in the show

  1055

  00:31:54.590 --> 00:31:57.010

  what are imposter feelings

  1056

  00:31:57.010 --> 00:31:58.390

  protecting us from

  1057

  00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:02.130

  from feeling not good enough

  1058

  00:32:02.130 --> 00:32:03.790

  and yet at the same time

  1059

  00:32:04.350 --> 00:32:05.770

  perversely they make us feel

  1060

  00:32:05.770 --> 00:32:06.810

  not good enough

  1061

  00:32:06.810 --> 00:32:09.910

  so there's no winning

  1062

  00:32:10.970 --> 00:32:13.030

  it's a lose-lose situation isn't it

  1063

  00:32:13.030 --> 00:32:13.870

  that's right

  1064

  00:32:14.850 --> 00:32:16.470

  so let's just plant it

  1065

  00:32:16.470 --> 00:32:17.570

  into the eyes of the listener

  1066

  00:32:17.570 --> 00:32:18.730

  or the ears of the listener

  1067

  00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:19.570

  who's watching or listening

  1068

  00:32:19.570 --> 00:32:20.470

  to this right now

  1069

  00:32:20.470 --> 00:32:22.610

  so imagine I'm in my 40s

  1070

  00:32:22.610 --> 00:32:24.670

  I've been working really really hard

  1071

  00:32:25.330 --> 00:32:26.930

  for 20 plus years

  1072

  00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:28.630

  I've been rewarded that

  1073

  00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:29.910

  time and time again

  1074

  00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:33.790

  I'm the person who works

  1075

  00:32:33.790 --> 00:32:35.250

  late on a Friday night

  1076

  00:32:35.250 --> 00:32:36.590

  and early on a Sunday morning

  1077

  00:32:36.590 --> 00:32:37.750

  to get ready for the week

  1078

  00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:39.470

  I'm the person who

  1079

  00:32:39.470 --> 00:32:40.690

  comes in when there's drama

  1080

  00:32:40.690 --> 00:32:41.610

  and sorts it out

  1081

  00:32:41.610 --> 00:32:43.010

  I'm the person who always delivers

  1082

  00:32:44.370 --> 00:32:46.650

  I might have got feedback along the way

  1083

  00:32:48.550 --> 00:32:49.850

  how good I am

  1084

  00:32:49.850 --> 00:32:51.170

  or I might have got feedback on

  1085

  00:32:51.170 --> 00:32:52.090

  how hard I'm working

  1086

  00:32:52.090 --> 00:32:54.730

  just to make sure I take a rest

  1087

  00:32:54.730 --> 00:32:56.270

  I might have a spouse

  1088

  00:32:56.270 --> 00:32:57.030

  who tells me that

  1089

  00:32:57.030 --> 00:32:58.390

  I'm not ever present

  1090

  00:32:58.390 --> 00:32:59.550

  I'm physically here

  1091

  00:32:59.550 --> 00:33:00.290

  but I'm not present

  1092

  00:33:00.290 --> 00:33:01.510

  I'm thinking about something else

  1093

  00:33:02.090 --> 00:33:03.910

  and I'm now starting to recognize that

  1094

  00:33:03.910 --> 00:33:05.070

  and I'm now starting to go

  1095

  00:33:05.070 --> 00:33:07.410

  I want to do something about this

  1096

  00:33:07.930 --> 00:33:09.490

  because this just can't

  1097

  00:33:09.490 --> 00:33:10.590

  keep going the way it is

  1098

  00:33:10.590 --> 00:33:11.690

  and I would imagine

  1099

  00:33:11.690 --> 00:33:12.590

  that's the starting point

  1100

  00:33:12.590 --> 00:33:13.510

  things can't keep going

  1101

  00:33:13.510 --> 00:33:14.270

  the way they are

  1102

  00:33:15.310 --> 00:33:16.870

  the changes I've got no idea

  1103

  00:33:16.870 --> 00:33:17.970

  but things can't keep going

  1104

  00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:18.910

  the way they are

  1105

  00:33:18.910 --> 00:33:20.690

  because I can't keep going

  1106

  00:33:20.690 --> 00:33:21.670

  the way I am

  1107

  00:33:23.090 --> 00:33:24.430

  What's the conversation

  1108

  00:33:24.430 --> 00:33:25.430

  I need to have with you?

  1109

  00:33:26.690 --> 00:33:27.970

  There are two conversations

  1110

  00:33:27.970 --> 00:33:31.050

  one is about the internal experience

  1111

  00:33:31.050 --> 00:33:32.910

  so I ask people to reflect

  1112

  00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:34.510

  on a recent success

  1113

  00:33:34.510 --> 00:33:36.670

  something they felt went reasonably well

  1114

  00:33:36.670 --> 00:33:38.370

  so maybe it was a meeting

  1115

  00:33:38.370 --> 00:33:39.770

  a presentation

  1116

  00:33:39.770 --> 00:33:41.510

  a difficult conversation

  1117

  00:33:41.510 --> 00:33:42.730

  that they had to have

  1118

  00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:44.430

  and then write down

  1119

  00:33:44.430 --> 00:33:46.190

  the reasons you usually give yourself

  1120

  00:33:46.190 --> 00:33:47.310

  for why it doesn't count

  1121

  00:33:48.210 --> 00:33:50.170

  and then ask yourself

  1122

  00:33:50.170 --> 00:33:52.070

  would I accept those reasons

  1123

  00:33:52.070 --> 00:33:53.150

  from somebody else?

  1124

  00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:54.530

  Would I buy it?

  1125

  00:33:55.830 --> 00:33:57.050

  And the answer is usually

  1126

  00:33:57.050 --> 00:33:57.730

  no you wouldn't

  1127

  00:33:57.730 --> 00:33:58.990

  that would be deranged

  1128

  00:33:58.990 --> 00:34:01.130

  to think that it was not good enough

  1129

  00:34:01.130 --> 00:34:01.790

  it didn't count

  1130

  00:34:01.790 --> 00:34:02.750

  because you prepared

  1131

  00:34:02.750 --> 00:34:03.810

  for the conversation

  1132

  00:34:03.810 --> 00:34:05.410

  or you were winging it

  1133

  00:34:06.330 --> 00:34:08.150

  none of that is real

  1134

  00:34:08.949 --> 00:34:10.489

  you actually did the job

  1135

  00:34:10.489 --> 00:34:12.030

  you did what needed to be done

  1136

  00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:13.350

  so that's the first part

  1137

  00:34:13.350 --> 00:34:14.489

  the second part

  1138

  00:34:14.489 --> 00:34:15.810

  is in the functional behavior

  1139

  00:34:15.810 --> 00:34:17.670

  so exactly what are you doing?

  1140

  00:34:17.670 --> 00:34:19.010

  Is it overwork?

  1141

  00:34:19.330 --> 00:34:20.590

  Is it micromanagement?

  1142

  00:34:20.590 --> 00:34:23.850

  Is it constantly seeking reassurance?

  1143

  00:34:24.310 --> 00:34:25.570

  Is it getting prickly

  1144

  00:34:25.570 --> 00:34:27.570

  or defensive around your work?

  1145

  00:34:27.790 --> 00:34:29.409

  So we zero in on that

  1146

  00:34:29.409 --> 00:34:30.449

  and we say

  1147

  00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:32.650

  what can we change about that?

  1148

  00:34:33.670 --> 00:34:35.070

  Some people feel

  1149

  00:34:35.070 --> 00:34:36.170

  they need a huge break

  1150

  00:34:36.170 --> 00:34:37.489

  it's like getting rid

  1151

  00:34:37.489 --> 00:34:39.130

  of all the junk food in the house

  1152

  00:34:39.130 --> 00:34:41.790

  so that you won't slip up on your diet

  1153

  00:34:41.790 --> 00:34:43.949

  so they actually have to give themselves

  1154

  00:34:43.949 --> 00:34:45.310

  a couple of weeks off

  1155

  00:34:45.310 --> 00:34:46.409

  turn the phone off

  1156

  00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:47.750

  and realize that nothing

  1157

  00:34:47.750 --> 00:34:49.469

  falls apart without them

  1158

  00:34:49.469 --> 00:34:51.270

  other people are not

  1159

  00:34:51.270 --> 00:34:52.489

  quite ready to let go

  1160

  00:34:52.489 --> 00:34:53.350

  to that extent

  1161

  00:34:53.350 --> 00:34:54.230

  so in that case

  1162

  00:34:54.230 --> 00:34:55.889

  it's about dialing down

  1163

  00:34:55.889 --> 00:34:57.670

  so what's one thing

  1164

  00:34:57.670 --> 00:34:58.650

  that I could drop

  1165

  00:34:58.650 --> 00:34:59.770

  or delegate

  1166

  00:34:59.770 --> 00:35:01.650

  and when I delegate it

  1167

  00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:03.430

  really let it go

  1168

  00:35:03.430 --> 00:35:05.670

  not hover over the person

  1169

  00:35:05.670 --> 00:35:06.810

  making sure they do it

  1170

  00:35:06.810 --> 00:35:07.530

  exactly the way

  1171

  00:35:07.530 --> 00:35:08.370

  that I would have done it

  1172

  00:35:08.370 --> 00:35:09.330

  Talk that last bit

  1173

  00:35:09.330 --> 00:35:11.250

  I think that's the hardest part

  1174

  00:35:11.250 --> 00:35:12.710

  I'm thinking of a few different people

  1175

  00:35:12.710 --> 00:35:13.450

  I have in my mind

  1176

  00:35:13.450 --> 00:35:15.150

  who can do everything

  1177

  00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:15.830

  you just said

  1178

  00:35:16.510 --> 00:35:18.170

  except for the let go

  1179

  00:35:18.170 --> 00:35:20.110

  you have to put down

  1180

  00:35:20.110 --> 00:35:21.290

  the mental load

  1181

  00:35:21.850 --> 00:35:22.910

  because otherwise

  1182

  00:35:22.910 --> 00:35:24.650

  you're depriving the other person

  1183

  00:35:24.650 --> 00:35:25.970

  of their autonomy

  1184

  00:35:25.970 --> 00:35:28.530

  of their capacity to get better

  1185

  00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:30.510

  of their achievement

  1186

  00:35:30.510 --> 00:35:32.010

  through doing the task

  1187

  00:35:32.010 --> 00:35:33.730

  and you're trying to do it

  1188

  00:35:33.730 --> 00:35:35.610

  and not do it at the same time

  1189

  00:35:35.610 --> 00:35:37.950

  you've become Schrodinger's cat

  1190

  00:35:38.490 --> 00:35:39.570

  you both exist

  1191

  00:35:39.570 --> 00:35:40.330

  and don't exist

  1192

  00:35:40.330 --> 00:35:42.770

  as the owner of this task

  1193

  00:35:43.550 --> 00:35:45.710

  so being accountable

  1194

  00:35:45.710 --> 00:35:46.570

  is not the same

  1195

  00:35:46.570 --> 00:35:47.810

  as being responsible

  1196

  00:35:47.810 --> 00:35:49.890

  and a lot of leaders at this level

  1197

  00:35:49.890 --> 00:35:52.030

  have done racy matrices

  1198

  00:35:52.030 --> 00:35:54.330

  they know the difference

  1199

  00:35:54.330 --> 00:35:56.030

  and yet they need to learn

  1200

  00:35:56.030 --> 00:35:58.190

  to apply it to themselves

  1201

  00:35:58.850 --> 00:36:00.410

  so I trust

  1202

  00:36:00.410 --> 00:36:01.490

  that this person

  1203

  00:36:01.490 --> 00:36:02.950

  will get the job done

  1204

  00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:04.110

  and I am willing

  1205

  00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:05.310

  to give them enough time

  1206

  00:36:05.310 --> 00:36:06.910

  and latitude to do it

  1207

  00:36:06.910 --> 00:36:09.650

  and maybe I'll build enough gates

  1208

  00:36:09.650 --> 00:36:10.670

  into the process

  1209

  00:36:10.670 --> 00:36:11.830

  so that I can review it

  1210

  00:36:11.830 --> 00:36:13.190

  somewhere along the line

  1211

  00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:15.090

  to help manage my own anxiety

  1212

  00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:16.790

  but I need to recognise

  1213

  00:36:16.790 --> 00:36:18.670

  when I am anxiously

  1214

  00:36:18.670 --> 00:36:20.310

  over managing something

  1215

  00:36:20.310 --> 00:36:22.150

  when I'm polishing it

  1216

  00:36:22.150 --> 00:36:23.990

  to such a fine degree

  1217

  00:36:23.990 --> 00:36:25.230

  that people are going to slip

  1218

  00:36:25.230 --> 00:36:25.990

  on the floors

  1219

  00:36:25.990 --> 00:36:27.470

  and dislocate a hip

  1220

  00:36:28.910 --> 00:36:30.350

  you've got to be able

  1221

  00:36:30.350 --> 00:36:31.630

  to let things go

  1222

  00:36:31.630 --> 00:36:32.950

  that are good enough

  1223

  00:36:33.690 --> 00:36:35.590

  and I think that's the hardest part

  1224

  00:36:35.590 --> 00:36:36.770

  it's that last one

  1225

  00:36:36.770 --> 00:36:38.130

  and I've seen it happen

  1226

  00:36:38.130 --> 00:36:38.750

  so many times

  1227

  00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:40.030

  and maybe I might even be guilty

  1228

  00:36:40.030 --> 00:36:41.250

  of it myself along the way

  1229

  00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:41.890

  who knows

  1230

  00:36:41.890 --> 00:36:43.330

  but the idea

  1231

  00:36:43.330 --> 00:36:45.390

  because when I look at leaders

  1232

  00:36:45.390 --> 00:36:46.670

  I have worked with

  1233

  00:36:46.670 --> 00:36:48.090

  in my coaching career

  1234

  00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:50.150

  a lot of folks

  1235

  00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:51.630

  iterate on the way

  1236

  00:36:51.630 --> 00:36:53.170

  so they don't necessarily

  1237

  00:36:53.170 --> 00:36:54.650

  plan out on day one

  1238

  00:36:55.750 --> 00:36:56.850

  the end output

  1239

  00:36:56.850 --> 00:36:58.050

  is going to look like this

  1240

  00:36:58.770 --> 00:36:59.750

  but along the way

  1241

  00:36:59.750 --> 00:37:00.470

  they realise

  1242

  00:37:00.470 --> 00:37:01.670

  what the next iteration

  1243

  00:37:01.670 --> 00:37:02.530

  needs to be

  1244

  00:37:02.530 --> 00:37:05.470

  because so for the team

  1245

  00:37:05.470 --> 00:37:06.790

  who've been given autonomy

  1246

  00:37:06.790 --> 00:37:08.170

  that can be very hard

  1247

  00:37:08.170 --> 00:37:08.910

  because the iteration

  1248

  00:37:08.910 --> 00:37:09.930

  is coming along the way

  1249

  00:37:09.930 --> 00:37:10.590

  and the leaders come in

  1250

  00:37:10.590 --> 00:37:10.950

  and going

  1251

  00:37:10.950 --> 00:37:12.050

  now that's not right

  1252

  00:37:13.570 --> 00:37:15.230

  now it could be right

  1253

  00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:16.270

  it could be enough

  1254

  00:37:16.270 --> 00:37:17.130

  it could be fine

  1255

  00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:18.530

  but it's not right

  1256

  00:37:18.530 --> 00:37:20.130

  in the sense of being perfectly right

  1257

  00:37:20.130 --> 00:37:21.610

  but the leader didn't know

  1258

  00:37:21.610 --> 00:37:22.050

  that upfront

  1259

  00:37:22.050 --> 00:37:23.350

  because they hadn't seen it

  1260

  00:37:23.350 --> 00:37:26.070

  so the receiving impact is

  1261

  00:37:26.070 --> 00:37:27.070

  every time we give

  1262

  00:37:27.070 --> 00:37:29.110

  we come to a milestone

  1263

  00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:30.690

  or a check gate

  1264

  00:37:31.530 --> 00:37:32.730

  they change it

  1265

  00:37:34.350 --> 00:37:35.450

  whereas the leader's going

  1266

  00:37:35.450 --> 00:37:36.690

  I'm not changing it

  1267

  00:37:36.690 --> 00:37:37.510

  it just hasn't reached

  1268

  00:37:37.510 --> 00:37:38.070

  the end point

  1269

  00:37:38.070 --> 00:37:39.670

  that we need to get to

  1270

  00:37:39.670 --> 00:37:41.630

  and they're very different perspectives

  1271

  00:37:41.630 --> 00:37:43.150

  but the end output

  1272

  00:37:43.150 --> 00:37:43.950

  is still the same

  1273

  00:37:43.950 --> 00:37:45.030

  the leader's not letting go

  1274

  00:37:45.030 --> 00:37:46.250

  the team are getting exhausted

  1275

  00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:48.110

  yes and it's really hard

  1276

  00:37:48.110 --> 00:37:49.350

  to work for a leader like that

  1277

  00:37:49.350 --> 00:37:50.170

  because you feel like

  1278

  00:37:50.170 --> 00:37:51.230

  you've done your best work

  1279

  00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:52.010

  and what you hear is

  1280

  00:37:52.010 --> 00:37:53.110

  it wasn't good enough

  1281

  00:37:53.110 --> 00:37:54.490

  so then maybe you start

  1282

  00:37:54.490 --> 00:37:56.250

  to feel like an imposter as well

  1283

  00:37:56.250 --> 00:37:57.510

  like this strategy

  1284

  00:37:57.510 --> 00:37:58.950

  has worked for me before

  1285

  00:37:58.950 --> 00:38:00.150

  I've done work like this

  1286

  00:38:00.150 --> 00:38:01.310

  and it's been well received

  1287

  00:38:01.310 --> 00:38:02.890

  and now I keep getting it back

  1288

  00:38:02.890 --> 00:38:04.830

  to redo over and over

  1289

  00:38:05.350 --> 00:38:06.530

  so I think the leader

  1290

  00:38:06.530 --> 00:38:07.470

  has a role there

  1291

  00:38:07.470 --> 00:38:08.830

  in setting the climate of

  1292

  00:38:08.830 --> 00:38:10.470

  this is the way we work

  1293

  00:38:10.470 --> 00:38:11.950

  this is going to be

  1294

  00:38:11.950 --> 00:38:13.530

  an iterative process

  1295

  00:38:13.530 --> 00:38:16.050

  admitting some vulnerability up front

  1296

  00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:17.570

  of I don't quite know

  1297

  00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:19.070

  what good looks like yet

  1298

  00:38:19.070 --> 00:38:20.490

  this is an emerging

  1299

  00:38:20.490 --> 00:38:22.010

  and evolving field

  1300

  00:38:22.010 --> 00:38:23.910

  we are figuring it out together

  1301

  00:38:23.910 --> 00:38:25.550

  as we go along

  1302

  00:38:25.550 --> 00:38:26.790

  and that means

  1303

  00:38:26.790 --> 00:38:27.990

  that we'll need to iterate

  1304

  00:38:27.990 --> 00:38:29.330

  this a few times

  1305

  00:38:29.330 --> 00:38:31.550

  so what looks good here

  1306

  00:38:31.550 --> 00:38:32.390

  might not be

  1307

  00:38:32.390 --> 00:38:34.070

  what is necessary down the track

  1308

  00:38:34.070 --> 00:38:35.530

  because everything is changing

  1309

  00:38:35.530 --> 00:38:37.470

  but I'm going to keep you posted

  1310

  00:38:37.470 --> 00:38:39.230

  and I'm going to keep giving you feedback

  1311

  00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:40.450

  that I'm hearing

  1312

  00:38:40.450 --> 00:38:42.450

  about what this needs to look like

  1313

  00:38:42.450 --> 00:38:44.630

  and how my thinking is evolving

  1314

  00:38:44.630 --> 00:38:47.430

  and I'm also going to invite your input

  1315

  00:38:47.430 --> 00:38:49.130

  into what good looks like

  1316

  00:38:49.130 --> 00:38:50.710

  let's co-create it together

  1317

  00:38:50.710 --> 00:38:52.870

  it's not all on me as the leader

  1318

  00:38:53.570 --> 00:38:54.590

  to set the vision

  1319

  00:38:54.590 --> 00:38:55.470

  and tell everybody

  1320

  00:38:55.470 --> 00:38:56.630

  this is exactly how

  1321

  00:38:56.630 --> 00:38:57.890

  every step will be done

  1322

  00:39:00.020 --> 00:39:00.640

  we're talking about

  1323

  00:39:00.640 --> 00:39:01.800

  high performance here

  1324

  00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:02.600

  like in this piece

  1325

  00:39:02.600 --> 00:39:03.580

  and you've mentioned

  1326

  00:39:03.580 --> 00:39:05.100

  discipline and distress

  1327

  00:39:05.100 --> 00:39:05.860

  and I love that

  1328

  00:39:05.860 --> 00:39:07.320

  but that's not confused

  1329

  00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:08.440

  distress for discipline

  1330

  00:39:09.200 --> 00:39:10.340

  we know that discipline

  1331

  00:39:10.340 --> 00:39:11.340

  can reach high performance

  1332

  00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:12.540

  and that's why they would

  1333

  00:39:12.540 --> 00:39:13.460

  feel like that

  1334

  00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:16.040

  so there's another couple of words

  1335

  00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:17.240

  that often are linked

  1336

  00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:18.980

  with performance

  1337

  00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:20.860

  that I think a lot of us underestimate

  1338

  00:39:20.860 --> 00:39:21.700

  and self-compassion

  1339

  00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:23.740

  is one of the phrases

  1340

  00:39:23.740 --> 00:39:24.980

  that are being used

  1341

  00:39:24.980 --> 00:39:25.860

  more and more

  1342

  00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:27.220

  related to high performance

  1343

  00:39:27.220 --> 00:39:28.320

  and imposterism

  1344

  00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.380

  and perfectionism

  1345

  00:39:29.380 --> 00:39:30.460

  and all of those traits

  1346

  00:39:31.660 --> 00:39:33.740

  the words self-compassion

  1347

  00:39:33.740 --> 00:39:35.880

  has a tonality to it

  1348

  00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:37.200

  that sounds like soft

  1349

  00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:39.280

  but I know enough about the work

  1350

  00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:39.900

  that you do

  1351

  00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:41.080

  that you would disagree

  1352

  00:39:41.080 --> 00:39:43.200

  with that notion

  1353

  00:39:43.460 --> 00:39:45.920

  tell us why self-compassion

  1354

  00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.060

  and high standards

  1355

  00:39:47.060 --> 00:39:48.360

  and the inner standards

  1356

  00:39:49.240 --> 00:39:51.300

  are so intrinsically linked

  1357

  00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:55.180

  self-compassion has a terrible PR problem

  1358

  00:39:55.180 --> 00:39:56.860

  I'll concede that right away

  1359

  00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:00.220

  for a lot of high performing leaders

  1360

  00:40:00.220 --> 00:40:01.060

  self-compassion

  1361

  00:40:01.060 --> 00:40:02.460

  sounds like taking yourself off

  1362

  00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:03.220

  to a day spa

  1363

  00:40:03.220 --> 00:40:03.960

  and dropping off

  1364

  00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:05.040

  all your standards

  1365

  00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:08.140

  that's not it at all

  1366

  00:40:08.900 --> 00:40:10.580

  what we're talking about here

  1367

  00:40:10.580 --> 00:40:12.700

  is a reflective tool

  1368

  00:40:12.700 --> 00:40:15.140

  that allows you to look objectively

  1369

  00:40:15.140 --> 00:40:17.020

  at what you did or didn't do

  1370

  00:40:17.020 --> 00:40:18.940

  and assess a situation

  1371

  00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:20.740

  in a way

  1372

  00:40:20.740 --> 00:40:22.240

  that doesn't make you

  1373

  00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:23.700

  defensive

  1374

  00:40:23.700 --> 00:40:24.960

  or anxious

  1375

  00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:26.180

  or ashamed

  1376

  00:40:26.180 --> 00:40:27.640

  or perfectionistic

  1377

  00:40:27.640 --> 00:40:30.140

  none of which is a very great learning state

  1378

  00:40:30.140 --> 00:40:31.300

  by the way

  1379

  00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:34.500

  the research shows on self-compassion

  1380

  00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:35.780

  that we actually get

  1381

  00:40:35.780 --> 00:40:36.760

  better outcomes

  1382

  00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:38.460

  when we're kinder to ourselves

  1383

  00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:40.560

  because instead of saying

  1384

  00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:42.820

  this mistake was catastrophic

  1385

  00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:44.020

  I'm so terrible

  1386

  00:40:44.020 --> 00:40:45.520

  I need to self-flagellate

  1387

  00:40:45.520 --> 00:40:47.280

  before anybody else can punish me

  1388

  00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.540

  for this awful thing that I did

  1389

  00:40:49.540 --> 00:40:51.100

  we're saying to ourselves

  1390

  00:40:51.100 --> 00:40:52.980

  okay what happened here

  1391

  00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:55.100

  what was mine to own

  1392

  00:40:55.100 --> 00:40:58.060

  what lessons have I learned from this

  1393

  00:40:58.060 --> 00:41:01.100

  and what does this mean or not mean

  1394

  00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:03.120

  because making a mistake

  1395

  00:41:03.120 --> 00:41:05.620

  can mean that you were overworked

  1396

  00:41:05.620 --> 00:41:07.180

  you were under-resourced

  1397

  00:41:07.180 --> 00:41:08.300

  you were compensating

  1398

  00:41:08.300 --> 00:41:09.820

  for a broken system

  1399

  00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:12.220

  it doesn't necessarily mean

  1400

  00:41:12.220 --> 00:41:13.300

  that you were a fraud

  1401

  00:41:13.300 --> 00:41:15.100

  and you were not good enough

  1402

  00:41:16.120 --> 00:41:18.500

  so assigning the appropriate amount

  1403

  00:41:18.500 --> 00:41:19.680

  of meaning to a mistake

  1404

  00:41:19.680 --> 00:41:21.380

  helps you learn from it

  1405

  00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:25.840

  I think shame is a very expensive fuel source

  1406

  00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:28.580

  that's extraordinary what you just said

  1407

  00:41:29.260 --> 00:41:31.920

  well we use shame to drive ourselves

  1408

  00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.340

  it's part of the internal bullying

  1409

  00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:36.240

  that I spoke about earlier

  1410

  00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:38.020

  we think it gives us an edge

  1411

  00:41:38.020 --> 00:41:39.400

  we think it stops us

  1412

  00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:41.140

  from becoming lazy or arrogant

  1413

  00:41:41.140 --> 00:41:42.620

  but it doesn't

  1414

  00:41:42.620 --> 00:41:45.440

  it makes us shrink into ourselves

  1415

  00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.240

  we are crushed

  1416

  00:41:47.240 --> 00:41:48.480

  and we're doing it

  1417

  00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.200

  in this kind of strange way

  1418

  00:41:50.200 --> 00:41:51.900

  of self-protectionism

  1419

  00:41:53.620 --> 00:41:56.000

  so if I set my standards

  1420

  00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.180

  impossibly high

  1421

  00:41:57.180 --> 00:41:59.120

  nobody can ever criticize me

  1422

  00:41:59.120 --> 00:42:01.380

  if I'm completely self-sufficient

  1423

  00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:03.080

  then I won't ever need anyone

  1424

  00:42:03.080 --> 00:42:04.600

  and I won't have to be vulnerable

  1425

  00:42:04.600 --> 00:42:07.040

  if I anticipate every objection

  1426

  00:42:07.040 --> 00:42:09.600

  then nobody can ever refute

  1427

  00:42:09.600 --> 00:42:10.700

  what I have to say

  1428

  00:42:10.700 --> 00:42:12.880

  if I can keep things perfect

  1429

  00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.220

  then I'll be safe

  1430

  00:42:14.220 --> 00:42:16.360

  but we turn that on ourselves

  1431

  00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:18.040

  and these become standards

  1432

  00:42:18.040 --> 00:42:19.100

  that are impossible

  1433

  00:42:19.100 --> 00:42:21.420

  for any creature alive

  1434

  00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:22.600

  to ever meet

  1435

  00:42:22.600 --> 00:42:24.940

  nobody can do these things

  1436

  00:42:24.940 --> 00:42:26.400

  and I think men

  1437

  00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:28.520

  have this particular layer

  1438

  00:42:28.520 --> 00:42:30.360

  of needing to be seen

  1439

  00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:31.660

  to be in control

  1440

  00:42:31.660 --> 00:42:32.760

  to know everything

  1441

  00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:33.820

  to be competent

  1442

  00:42:33.820 --> 00:42:35.660

  to have it all figured out

  1443

  00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:37.720

  we still look to men

  1444

  00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:39.620

  as the natural leaders in society

  1445

  00:42:39.620 --> 00:42:41.800

  so if you don't feel like that inside

  1446

  00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:43.820

  it's a very jarring feeling

  1447

  00:42:43.820 --> 00:42:45.420

  and then one of the ways

  1448

  00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:47.340

  that people deal with that

  1449

  00:42:47.340 --> 00:42:50.100

  is to turn shame on themselves

  1450

  00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:53.140

  to tell themselves

  1451

  00:42:53.140 --> 00:42:54.080

  they're defective

  1452

  00:42:54.080 --> 00:42:55.900

  for not feeling confident enough

  1453

  00:42:56.620 --> 00:42:57.980

  I think what you've just said

  1454

  00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:58.840

  is one of the most

  1455

  00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:01.240

  I'm going to use the word

  1456

  00:43:01.240 --> 00:43:02.140

  very consciously

  1457

  00:43:02.140 --> 00:43:03.620

  one of the most profound things

  1458

  00:43:03.620 --> 00:43:04.620

  we've heard in this show

  1459

  00:43:04.620 --> 00:43:05.460

  since we started

  1460

  00:43:05.660 --> 00:43:06.780

  like just that last

  1461

  00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:09.980

  couple of sentences you said

  1462

  00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.500

  shame is the most expensive

  1463

  00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:13.440

  fuel source we have

  1464

  00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:14.840

  that's extraordinary

  1465

  00:43:15.580 --> 00:43:16.580

  and when I step back

  1466

  00:43:16.580 --> 00:43:17.360

  and listen to it

  1467

  00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:18.620

  I think about the various

  1468

  00:43:19.180 --> 00:43:20.620

  guests we've had in this show

  1469

  00:43:20.620 --> 00:43:21.780

  who were experts

  1470

  00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.820

  either in their own lived experiences

  1471

  00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:25.200

  or indeed expert

  1472

  00:43:25.200 --> 00:43:27.060

  in helping people to treat it

  1473

  00:43:27.060 --> 00:43:28.820

  what I'm reminded of is

  1474

  00:43:30.200 --> 00:43:31.420

  the link between

  1475

  00:43:32.220 --> 00:43:33.960

  my high competency

  1476

  00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:36.440

  that I've used time and time again

  1477

  00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:39.200

  and the self-flagellating

  1478

  00:43:39.200 --> 00:43:41.720

  I go through when something goes wrong

  1479

  00:43:43.160 --> 00:43:45.220

  and the notion of self-compassion

  1480

  00:43:45.220 --> 00:43:46.620

  as the antidote for that

  1481

  00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:48.400

  shame is that the cloak

  1482

  00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:49.700

  that wraps around all of it

  1483

  00:43:49.700 --> 00:43:50.480

  that actually prevents

  1484

  00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.200

  the self-compassion from kicking in

  1485

  00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.540

  and if I move away

  1486

  00:43:55.540 --> 00:43:56.860

  from the kind of therapeutic

  1487

  00:43:56.860 --> 00:43:57.720

  type of language

  1488

  00:43:57.720 --> 00:43:59.980

  to more of a performance

  1489

  00:43:59.980 --> 00:44:01.360

  type of language for a second

  1490

  00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:03.580

  while self-compassion

  1491

  00:44:03.580 --> 00:44:05.020

  is allowing you to do

  1492

  00:44:05.720 --> 00:44:08.200

  is in the absence of self-flagellating

  1493

  00:44:08.200 --> 00:44:09.680

  you're opening up a space

  1494

  00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.720

  for objective conversations

  1495

  00:44:12.720 --> 00:44:14.520

  on what did I

  1496

  00:44:14.520 --> 00:44:15.240

  what worked

  1497

  00:44:15.240 --> 00:44:16.200

  and what didn't

  1498

  00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:18.600

  and then I can address what didn't

  1499

  00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:21.080

  which is what performance is

  1500

  00:44:21.740 --> 00:44:22.880

  which is why this person

  1501

  00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:24.320

  is successful to begin with

  1502

  00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.000

  but if you go through the motions

  1503

  00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.300

  of the self-flagellation

  1504

  00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:28.380

  and all of the

  1505

  00:44:29.100 --> 00:44:30.020

  because there's a latency

  1506

  00:44:30.020 --> 00:44:30.960

  that happens afterwards

  1507

  00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:32.200

  you have the conversation

  1508

  00:44:32.200 --> 00:44:33.780

  but the emotions don't go for hours

  1509

  00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:36.340

  so you're sitting in that emotional state

  1510

  00:44:36.340 --> 00:44:38.080

  a long time after the conversation

  1511

  00:44:38.080 --> 00:44:38.980

  you value yourself

  1512

  00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:40.400

  and that emotional state

  1513

  00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.320

  then ripples into other conversations

  1514

  00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:43.940

  and family dynamics

  1515

  00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:46.060

  and the meeting with the team

  1516

  00:44:46.060 --> 00:44:47.460

  three days later

  1517

  00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:49.760

  that stays there

  1518

  00:44:50.660 --> 00:44:53.100

  but if we're able to understand

  1519

  00:44:53.100 --> 00:44:54.800

  that self-compassion

  1520

  00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:56.440

  is actually a performance tool

  1521

  00:44:57.080 --> 00:44:58.960

  that allows me to

  1522

  00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.140

  pause long enough to be objective

  1523

  00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.800

  it actually allows me to come back

  1524

  00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:05.060

  on track far faster

  1525

  00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:06.880

  and potentially far better

  1526

  00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.320

  than I was before

  1527

  00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:09.400

  so it's

  1528

  00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:14.280

  that fuel source I'm wasting

  1529

  00:45:15.060 --> 00:45:17.100

  through the notion of feeling ashamed

  1530

  00:45:17.980 --> 00:45:19.080

  is the same fuel source

  1531

  00:45:19.080 --> 00:45:20.360

  as getting in the way of

  1532

  00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:21.480

  returning to performance

  1533

  00:45:22.520 --> 00:45:23.400

  that's right

  1534

  00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:25.080

  you can't put the wrong fuel

  1535

  00:45:25.080 --> 00:45:25.800

  in your engine

  1536

  00:45:26.580 --> 00:45:28.200

  it jams up the whole thing

  1537

  00:45:28.740 --> 00:45:30.560

  we had Jessica Turton

  1538

  00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:31.220

  here recently

  1539

  00:45:31.220 --> 00:45:32.620

  a very very different conversation

  1540

  00:45:32.620 --> 00:45:33.700

  about what you and I are having

  1541

  00:45:33.700 --> 00:45:35.560

  she was talking about a fuel source

  1542

  00:45:35.560 --> 00:45:36.780

  in terms of our bodies

  1543

  00:45:36.780 --> 00:45:37.240

  and she said

  1544

  00:45:37.240 --> 00:45:39.020

  one of the most useful fuel sources

  1545

  00:45:39.020 --> 00:45:40.520

  but a lot of us use is alcohol

  1546

  00:45:41.640 --> 00:45:43.100

  like you've got protein

  1547

  00:45:43.100 --> 00:45:44.620

  you've got protein, fats and carbohydrates

  1548

  00:45:44.620 --> 00:45:45.400

  and alcohol

  1549

  00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:46.620

  are the three fuel sources

  1550

  00:45:46.620 --> 00:45:48.020

  what you're saying is

  1551

  00:45:48.020 --> 00:45:49.940

  shame is akin to the alcohol

  1552

  00:45:49.940 --> 00:45:50.800

  as a fuel source

  1553

  00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:52.280

  it's a great analogy

  1554

  00:45:53.240 --> 00:45:55.200

  it works for a bit

  1555

  00:45:55.200 --> 00:45:56.520

  it doesn't work forever

  1556

  00:45:57.180 --> 00:45:58.920

  but at what cost

  1557

  00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:01.020

  what damage have you done to yourself

  1558

  00:46:01.020 --> 00:46:03.000

  by using that as your driver?

  1559

  00:46:03.940 --> 00:46:05.320

  So what you're telling us is

  1560

  00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:06.420

  if you're a man

  1561

  00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:10.660

  and 65% of our listeners are men

  1562

  00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:15.040

  and you're a man who's used to being

  1563

  00:46:15.040 --> 00:46:16.200

  who is sorry

  1564

  00:46:16.200 --> 00:46:17.960

  who is good at what you do

  1565

  00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:18.860

  you're a performer

  1566

  00:46:18.860 --> 00:46:20.260

  you may be a high performer

  1567

  00:46:20.260 --> 00:46:22.280

  you may be a sustained high performer

  1568

  00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:23.380

  you might be someone

  1569

  00:46:23.380 --> 00:46:25.260

  who's been promoted several times

  1570

  00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:27.000

  or indeed you've set up your own business

  1571

  00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:28.020

  or you're successful

  1572

  00:46:28.020 --> 00:46:29.560

  in whatever role you're doing

  1573

  00:46:30.340 --> 00:46:31.840

  and at the same token

  1574

  00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:34.340

  you know that behind the scene

  1575

  00:46:34.340 --> 00:46:35.500

  you're doubting yourself

  1576

  00:46:35.500 --> 00:46:37.420

  along that path

  1577

  00:46:37.420 --> 00:46:39.060

  for a long period of time

  1578

  00:46:39.620 --> 00:46:40.680

  what you're telling us

  1579

  00:46:40.680 --> 00:46:42.520

  is there's this really great tool

  1580

  00:46:42.520 --> 00:46:44.020

  that's at your disposal

  1581

  00:46:45.240 --> 00:46:48.800

  that it might have a red or pink

  1582

  00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:50.060

  wrapping around it

  1583

  00:46:50.060 --> 00:46:51.460

  i.e. you might think it's soft

  1584

  00:46:51.460 --> 00:46:52.520

  but actually

  1585

  00:46:52.520 --> 00:46:54.120

  if you open up the package

  1586

  00:46:54.120 --> 00:46:56.280

  it is the tool that allows you

  1587

  00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:57.800

  to sustain that performance

  1588

  00:46:57.800 --> 00:46:59.820

  a lot longer

  1589

  00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:03.320

  and you're exerting a lot less fuel

  1590

  00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:05.780

  and energy that's been wasted along the way

  1591

  00:47:05.780 --> 00:47:06.900

  that's right

  1592

  00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:08.980

  yes i think self-compassion

  1593

  00:47:08.980 --> 00:47:10.740

  is a highly efficient

  1594

  00:47:10.740 --> 00:47:13.080

  psychological tool for performance

  1595

  00:47:13.780 --> 00:47:16.960

  so if i feel resistant to that

  1596

  00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:19.780

  i'm sure many folks are sitting here

  1597

  00:47:19.780 --> 00:47:21.560

  going that sounds fine Aaron

  1598

  00:47:21.560 --> 00:47:22.760

  but i ain't going on that path

  1599

  00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:23.900

  but if i'm resistant to that

  1600

  00:47:23.900 --> 00:47:24.820

  what's my first step

  1601

  00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:27.380

  well i i'm not suggesting

  1602

  00:47:27.380 --> 00:47:29.300

  that you give yourself a free pass

  1603

  00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:31.300

  on every bad thing you've ever ever done

  1604

  00:47:31.300 --> 00:47:33.160

  you can't turn into a sociopath

  1605

  00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:34.560

  and say oh well i'm being so

  1606

  00:47:34.560 --> 00:47:35.780

  self-compassionate

  1607

  00:47:35.780 --> 00:47:37.160

  so it didn't count

  1608

  00:47:37.160 --> 00:47:38.860

  what i'm talking about

  1609

  00:47:38.860 --> 00:47:40.700

  is the three-step process

  1610

  00:47:40.700 --> 00:47:42.660

  that Kristen Neff has outlined

  1611

  00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:45.160

  in her construct of self-compassion

  1612

  00:47:45.160 --> 00:47:47.140

  it's about mindfulness

  1613

  00:47:47.140 --> 00:47:48.880

  so noticing the ways

  1614

  00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:50.380

  that you speak to yourself

  1615

  00:47:50.380 --> 00:47:52.400

  becoming more objective

  1616

  00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.360

  viewing the situation from the outside

  1617

  00:47:56.080 --> 00:47:58.860

  noticing the common humanity in this

  1618

  00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:00.800

  this is the kind of mistake

  1619

  00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.840

  that everybody makes

  1620

  00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:04.240

  somewhere along the line

  1621

  00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:07.340

  i'm suffering at the moment

  1622

  00:48:07.340 --> 00:48:09.800

  and everybody experiences

  1623

  00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:11.100

  moments of suffering

  1624

  00:48:11.100 --> 00:48:14.080

  this is what being a human is all about

  1625

  00:48:14.080 --> 00:48:16.060

  and then the third piece

  1626

  00:48:16.060 --> 00:48:18.240

  is speaking to yourself

  1627

  00:48:18.240 --> 00:48:20.480

  the way you'd speak to a dear friend

  1628

  00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:22.440

  think about how you would talk

  1629

  00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:23.720

  to your favorite nephew

  1630

  00:48:23.720 --> 00:48:25.800

  if he had the same issue

  1631

  00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:27.840

  what would you say to him

  1632

  00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:29.360

  i'm writing this down

  1633

  00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:29.880

  so you're saying

  1634

  00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:31.900

  take time to witness yourself

  1635

  00:48:31.900 --> 00:48:32.800

  mindfulness

  1636

  00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:35.560

  take time to recognize

  1637

  00:48:36.240 --> 00:48:37.840

  what's it like to be a human

  1638

  00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:39.280

  in this experience

  1639

  00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:41.140

  and then take time to note

  1640

  00:48:41.140 --> 00:48:42.420

  if this was my friend

  1641

  00:48:42.420 --> 00:48:43.540

  asking me

  1642

  00:48:43.540 --> 00:48:44.540

  what would i be telling them

  1643

  00:48:45.260 --> 00:48:46.320

  there are three steps

  1644

  00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:47.580

  that's right

  1645

  00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:49.340

  okay i'm gonna go with that

  1646

  00:48:49.340 --> 00:48:49.920

  great

  1647

  00:48:53.600 --> 00:48:54.660

  come back to standard

  1648

  00:48:54.660 --> 00:48:55.660

  like you mentioned a few times

  1649

  00:48:55.660 --> 00:48:56.540

  you say to folks

  1650

  00:48:56.540 --> 00:48:59.380

  what standard would be enough for you

  1651

  00:48:59.380 --> 00:49:01.020

  and helping them to realize

  1652

  00:49:01.020 --> 00:49:03.780

  that no one can meet it

  1653

  00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:04.820

  the irony here of course

  1654

  00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:05.640

  is setting high standard

  1655

  00:49:05.640 --> 00:49:06.880

  gets us to where we are

  1656

  00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:08.440

  and getting setting high standards

  1657

  00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:09.120

  along the way

  1658

  00:49:09.120 --> 00:49:10.200

  has allowed us

  1659

  00:49:10.200 --> 00:49:11.300

  for at least many of us

  1660

  00:49:12.340 --> 00:49:13.720

  to perform at levels

  1661

  00:49:13.720 --> 00:49:15.260

  that other people deem to be great

  1662

  00:49:15.260 --> 00:49:16.080

  and get promoted

  1663

  00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:18.760

  you're also just saying right now

  1664

  00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:20.420

  that self-compassion

  1665

  00:49:20.420 --> 00:49:22.180

  is not about giving yourself a free pass

  1666

  00:49:22.180 --> 00:49:23.620

  that's not what it is at all

  1667

  00:49:23.620 --> 00:49:25.280

  it's allowing yourself to

  1668

  00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.320

  acknowledge that

  1669

  00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.280

  this standard that i set myself

  1670

  00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:29.780

  hasn't been achieved

  1671

  00:49:30.500 --> 00:49:31.980

  these are the circumstances

  1672

  00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:33.440

  and if my friend was doing this

  1673

  00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.480

  i'd be saying to them

  1674

  00:49:35.040 --> 00:49:36.460

  that's perfectly fine

  1675

  00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:39.120

  how do we reconcile

  1676

  00:49:39.120 --> 00:49:41.260

  setting standards going forward

  1677

  00:49:41.260 --> 00:49:42.440

  from that point

  1678

  00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:44.080

  and how do we reconcile

  1679

  00:49:44.080 --> 00:49:45.400

  or how do we think through

  1680

  00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:48.130

  in this aspect of my job or life

  1681

  00:49:49.260 --> 00:49:51.060

  standards are really important

  1682

  00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:53.380

  in this aspect of my job or life

  1683

  00:49:53.380 --> 00:49:53.880

  do you know what

  1684

  00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.200

  they no longer are

  1685

  00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:56.100

  at least to the level

  1686

  00:49:56.100 --> 00:49:57.380

  i used to hold them to

  1687

  00:49:57.380 --> 00:49:59.140

  and how do i reconcile for that

  1688

  00:50:00.820 --> 00:50:02.860

  one of the things we often do

  1689

  00:50:02.860 --> 00:50:05.580

  is to expect the same high level

  1690

  00:50:05.580 --> 00:50:07.620

  of standards across everything

  1691

  00:50:07.620 --> 00:50:09.180

  so i need to be calm

  1692

  00:50:09.180 --> 00:50:10.260

  i need to be capable

  1693

  00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:12.620

  i need to be emotionally stable

  1694

  00:50:12.620 --> 00:50:14.920

  i need to be physically resilient

  1695

  00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:16.720

  and financially successful

  1696

  00:50:16.720 --> 00:50:17.820

  and all of these things

  1697

  00:50:17.820 --> 00:50:19.540

  all at once all the time

  1698

  00:50:19.540 --> 00:50:21.860

  which nobody could possibly do

  1699

  00:50:22.600 --> 00:50:24.460

  we need to set standards

  1700

  00:50:24.460 --> 00:50:25.720

  that are important

  1701

  00:50:25.720 --> 00:50:27.320

  for the important things

  1702

  00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.600

  not everything has to be perfect

  1703

  00:50:29.600 --> 00:50:30.560

  all the time

  1704

  00:50:30.560 --> 00:50:32.060

  and most of us have had

  1705

  00:50:32.060 --> 00:50:34.460

  the experience of going to university

  1706

  00:50:34.460 --> 00:50:35.680

  and trying to get through

  1707

  00:50:35.680 --> 00:50:38.480

  all of the readings in a semester

  1708

  00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.800

  and then you realize

  1709

  00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:41.360

  well the marks are only awarded

  1710

  00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:42.620

  for the assignments

  1711

  00:50:43.260 --> 00:50:44.460

  so it's a bit like

  1712

  00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:46.100

  shifting your focus to

  1713

  00:50:46.100 --> 00:50:47.860

  i'm going to do really well

  1714

  00:50:47.860 --> 00:50:49.860

  at the things that count most

  1715

  00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:52.200

  and i'm not going to beat myself up

  1716

  00:50:52.200 --> 00:50:53.960

  for not reading every single paper

  1717

  00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:55.660

  might have been thrown onto

  1718

  00:50:55.660 --> 00:50:58.000

  the reading list on a whim

  1719

  00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.300

  because the professor

  1720

  00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:00.920

  thought it was an interesting thing

  1721

  00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:02.880

  not because they actually expected us

  1722

  00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:04.300

  to have that detailed knowledge

  1723

  00:51:04.300 --> 00:51:05.780

  or indeed they may not even have read it

  1724

  00:51:05.780 --> 00:51:07.560

  indeed that's right

  1725

  00:51:07.560 --> 00:51:09.440

  so we can do this with our lives

  1726

  00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:11.540

  what are the really important things

  1727

  00:51:11.540 --> 00:51:12.280

  to me here

  1728

  00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:13.900

  what are the standards

  1729

  00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:16.600

  that would show success at work

  1730

  00:51:16.600 --> 00:51:17.980

  in 12 months time

  1731

  00:51:17.980 --> 00:51:19.000

  what would i look back on

  1732

  00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:20.300

  and say it was really important

  1733

  00:51:20.300 --> 00:51:21.220

  that i did this

  1734

  00:51:21.220 --> 00:51:23.740

  but also more broadly in our lives

  1735

  00:51:23.740 --> 00:51:25.880

  what's really important to me here

  1736

  00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:28.920

  is it important that i be a good husband

  1737

  00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:29.920

  and a good father

  1738

  00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:31.400

  and what does that look like

  1739

  00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:32.420

  what do i need to do

  1740

  00:51:32.420 --> 00:51:33.760

  to achieve those things

  1741

  00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:35.700

  and what's a reasonable balance

  1742

  00:51:35.700 --> 00:51:36.660

  that i can achieve

  1743

  00:51:36.660 --> 00:51:38.360

  because there are going to be trade-offs

  1744

  00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:40.550

  you can't be everywhere all at once

  1745

  00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:42.860

  you mentioned university

  1746

  00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:44.680

  you are a researcher

  1747

  00:51:44.680 --> 00:51:46.020

  studying imposterism

  1748

  00:51:46.720 --> 00:51:48.160

  you're a human being

  1749

  00:51:48.700 --> 00:51:50.080

  who happens to be a researcher

  1750

  00:51:50.080 --> 00:51:50.980

  some of the time

  1751

  00:51:50.980 --> 00:51:51.400

  allegedly

  1752

  00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:53.060

  where does the research stop and start

  1753

  00:51:53.060 --> 00:51:54.500

  where does the human come in

  1754

  00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:56.220

  and where's the overlap for you

  1755

  00:51:56.220 --> 00:51:58.220

  i do appreciate the irony

  1756

  00:51:58.220 --> 00:51:59.280

  of doing a phd

  1757

  00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:00.460

  in the imposter phenomenon

  1758

  00:52:00.460 --> 00:52:03.100

  i was drawn to this line of research

  1759

  00:52:03.100 --> 00:52:05.540

  because i see the pattern in myself

  1760

  00:52:05.540 --> 00:52:07.800

  and it's not as if i'm walking around

  1761

  00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:09.300

  going oh gosh i'm so hopeless

  1762

  00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:10.540

  i'm so incompetent

  1763

  00:52:10.540 --> 00:52:12.580

  but i do have this pattern

  1764

  00:52:12.580 --> 00:52:15.740

  of immediately discounting the evidence

  1765

  00:52:16.540 --> 00:52:18.880

  i'm quite good at making things

  1766

  00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.060

  difficult things look effortless

  1767

  00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:23.560

  and if it was effortless

  1768

  00:52:23.560 --> 00:52:26.020

  well it was probably quite easy

  1769

  00:52:26.020 --> 00:52:28.100

  and therefore it didn't count

  1770

  00:52:28.100 --> 00:52:30.160

  or if i had to work hard for it

  1771

  00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:32.880

  i probably threw too much at it

  1772

  00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:34.880

  and that doesn't count either

  1773

  00:52:37.020 --> 00:52:39.280

  so i'm i find myself

  1774

  00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:40.420

  playing all of these tricks

  1775

  00:52:40.420 --> 00:52:42.240

  i was i was winging it

  1776

  00:52:42.240 --> 00:52:43.020

  i was lucky

  1777

  00:52:43.020 --> 00:52:45.080

  i was supported by a good team

  1778

  00:52:45.080 --> 00:52:46.180

  i'm articulate

  1779

  00:52:46.180 --> 00:52:47.780

  so i can come across as knowing

  1780

  00:52:47.780 --> 00:52:49.460

  a lot more than i actually know

  1781

  00:52:50.300 --> 00:52:51.380

  and then i think

  1782

  00:52:51.380 --> 00:52:53.380

  well it's quite a neat little scam

  1783

  00:52:53.380 --> 00:52:55.040

  that my brain is running there

  1784

  00:52:55.040 --> 00:52:56.560

  so the interesting thing

  1785

  00:52:56.560 --> 00:52:57.740

  about being a researcher

  1786

  00:52:57.740 --> 00:53:00.220

  is that i can spot the machinery

  1787

  00:53:00.220 --> 00:53:02.240

  that's going on in the background

  1788

  00:53:02.660 --> 00:53:04.280

  you are your own petulish

  1789

  00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:06.520

  well it doesn't mean

  1790

  00:53:06.520 --> 00:53:08.240

  that i don't still get caught up in it

  1791

  00:53:08.240 --> 00:53:09.780

  i'm not walking around

  1792

  00:53:09.780 --> 00:53:11.860

  in a state of perfect psychological

  1793

  00:53:11.860 --> 00:53:13.680

  enlightenment all the time

  1794

  00:53:16.040 --> 00:53:18.080

  i really am human

  1795

  00:53:20.370 --> 00:53:21.830

  but but on a serious note

  1796

  00:53:21.830 --> 00:53:22.750

  if you think what's to

  1797

  00:53:22.750 --> 00:53:24.250

  as to the version of you

  1798

  00:53:25.690 --> 00:53:27.570

  before you started your phd

  1799

  00:53:27.570 --> 00:53:28.650

  versus the version of you

  1800

  00:53:28.650 --> 00:53:30.390

  now as you're as you're well into it

  1801

  00:53:31.270 --> 00:53:32.550

  can you see shifts

  1802

  00:53:32.550 --> 00:53:33.750

  for yourself along the way

  1803

  00:53:33.750 --> 00:53:34.970

  given you're you're

  1804

  00:53:34.970 --> 00:53:36.350

  you are hyper mindful

  1805

  00:53:36.350 --> 00:53:37.650

  of everything around this mechanism

  1806

  00:53:38.410 --> 00:53:39.970

  it's more an acceptance

  1807

  00:53:39.970 --> 00:53:41.630

  of the idea that i will never

  1808

  00:53:41.630 --> 00:53:43.350

  feel like i know enough

  1809

  00:53:44.630 --> 00:53:47.430

  so even once i have the phd

  1810

  00:53:47.430 --> 00:53:49.270

  which is still some years away

  1811

  00:53:49.270 --> 00:53:50.930

  it's a lot of effort to get there

  1812

  00:53:50.930 --> 00:53:53.330

  i will not know everything about the topic

  1813

  00:53:53.330 --> 00:53:55.490

  that's the nature of a phd

  1814

  00:53:55.490 --> 00:53:57.350

  you only know a little bit more

  1815

  00:53:57.350 --> 00:53:59.210

  about this one thing

  1816

  00:54:00.330 --> 00:54:03.010

  and nobody could hope to contain

  1817

  00:54:03.010 --> 00:54:04.510

  all of the knowledge

  1818

  00:54:04.510 --> 00:54:06.910

  of human achievement of all time

  1819

  00:54:06.910 --> 00:54:08.870

  we can't be experts in every field

  1820

  00:54:08.870 --> 00:54:10.270

  there's simply not enough time

  1821

  00:54:10.270 --> 00:54:12.690

  in our lives to do all of those things

  1822

  00:54:12.690 --> 00:54:14.890

  we just have to choose the thing

  1823

  00:54:14.890 --> 00:54:16.490

  that is important to us

  1824

  00:54:17.030 --> 00:54:18.810

  maybe have a passing knowledge

  1825

  00:54:18.810 --> 00:54:20.170

  of the other things

  1826

  00:54:20.170 --> 00:54:21.830

  the things that are most critical

  1827

  00:54:22.590 --> 00:54:24.850

  and then get on with trying

  1828

  00:54:24.850 --> 00:54:25.990

  to be a good person

  1829

  00:54:25.990 --> 00:54:27.630

  and do interesting work

  1830

  00:54:31.310 --> 00:54:33.270

  i remember hearing a story about

  1831

  00:54:33.270 --> 00:54:34.490

  jim rohan

  1832

  00:54:34.490 --> 00:54:37.410

  the famous american writer

  1833

  00:54:37.410 --> 00:54:38.690

  and speaker

  1834

  00:54:39.310 --> 00:54:41.790

  who was the predecessor to the

  1835

  00:54:41.790 --> 00:54:42.770

  anthony robbins of the world

  1836

  00:54:42.770 --> 00:54:43.630

  and all those kind of folks

  1837

  00:54:44.670 --> 00:54:46.570

  and someone was talking about how

  1838

  00:54:47.450 --> 00:54:49.230

  jim rohan who was in his 70s

  1839

  00:54:49.230 --> 00:54:50.470

  or 80s at this stage

  1840

  00:54:50.470 --> 00:54:52.990

  came to a conference at this speaker

  1841

  00:54:52.990 --> 00:54:55.870

  who i was who was relating the story to me

  1842

  00:54:56.450 --> 00:54:58.690

  i said jim rohan was in the front row

  1843

  00:54:58.690 --> 00:54:59.730

  in his notebook right now

  1844

  00:54:59.730 --> 00:55:01.690

  all these and he's kind of going

  1845

  00:55:01.690 --> 00:55:02.590

  what's he doing

  1846

  00:55:03.290 --> 00:55:04.610

  at the end of the show

  1847

  00:55:04.610 --> 00:55:06.310

  jim rohan came back to congratulate him

  1848

  00:55:06.310 --> 00:55:07.250

  he said can i ask you a question

  1849

  00:55:07.250 --> 00:55:09.190

  he said you're taking all these notes

  1850

  00:55:09.690 --> 00:55:10.950

  like what are you doing

  1851

  00:55:10.950 --> 00:55:12.670

  so i'm sure you've heard this like

  1852

  00:55:12.670 --> 00:55:14.090

  i was quoting you

  1853

  00:55:15.010 --> 00:55:16.190

  and he goes

  1854

  00:55:17.290 --> 00:55:19.210

  for a long time in my life

  1855

  00:55:19.210 --> 00:55:21.570

  i was really obsessed with

  1856

  00:55:21.570 --> 00:55:22.390

  i needed to know everything

  1857

  00:55:22.390 --> 00:55:23.930

  and he caused me huge distress

  1858

  00:55:23.930 --> 00:55:25.750

  and then eventually i realized

  1859

  00:55:25.750 --> 00:55:26.800

  well i'm never going to

  1860

  00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:28.290

  know everything

  1861

  00:55:28.290 --> 00:55:29.610

  so i thought i stopped learning

  1862

  00:55:30.870 --> 00:55:32.450

  so this phase of my life

  1863

  00:55:32.450 --> 00:55:33.210

  i'm realizing

  1864

  00:55:33.210 --> 00:55:35.130

  learning is the objective

  1865

  00:55:35.130 --> 00:55:36.130

  nothing else

  1866

  00:55:36.130 --> 00:55:38.450

  and so i i get so excited

  1867

  00:55:38.450 --> 00:55:39.790

  when i hear someone say something

  1868

  00:55:39.790 --> 00:55:41.050

  i've never come across before

  1869

  00:55:41.050 --> 00:55:42.650

  that goes oh that's something new

  1870

  00:55:42.650 --> 00:55:43.280

  that i've learned

  1871

  00:55:43.710 --> 00:55:45.810

  it says sometimes it's a tiny thing

  1872

  00:55:45.810 --> 00:55:46.970

  sometimes it's a major thing

  1873

  00:55:46.970 --> 00:55:48.270

  sometimes it complements

  1874

  00:55:48.270 --> 00:55:49.310

  what i already knew

  1875

  00:55:49.910 --> 00:55:51.370

  but i'm learning something new

  1876

  00:55:51.370 --> 00:55:54.150

  i mean when i was told

  1877

  00:55:54.150 --> 00:55:56.330

  that i was probably in my 30s

  1878

  00:55:56.330 --> 00:55:58.490

  i didn't understand the relevance of it

  1879

  00:55:58.490 --> 00:56:00.290

  i thought i thought it was just an interesting story

  1880

  00:56:00.290 --> 00:56:01.050

  but ha ha

  1881

  00:56:02.210 --> 00:56:04.610

  i now kind of go how cool is that

  1882

  00:56:04.610 --> 00:56:06.070

  how cool that here's a guy

  1883

  00:56:06.070 --> 00:56:07.690

  who was held up to be

  1884

  00:56:07.690 --> 00:56:09.130

  a really cool educator

  1885

  00:56:09.130 --> 00:56:10.210

  mentor for so long

  1886

  00:56:10.210 --> 00:56:11.330

  to so many people

  1887

  00:56:11.330 --> 00:56:13.950

  and he's flipped his own thinking from

  1888

  00:56:13.950 --> 00:56:15.970

  i am the expert on the stage

  1889

  00:56:17.070 --> 00:56:18.450

  cripes i've stopped learning

  1890

  00:56:18.450 --> 00:56:19.830

  to actually there's a joy

  1891

  00:56:19.830 --> 00:56:21.450

  that comes from learning

  1892

  00:56:21.450 --> 00:56:23.050

  to the extent that he was still

  1893

  00:56:23.050 --> 00:56:24.370

  in his late 70s 80s

  1894

  00:56:24.370 --> 00:56:25.310

  filling his notebooks

  1895

  00:56:25.310 --> 00:56:26.930

  with insights and learnings

  1896

  00:56:26.930 --> 00:56:28.370

  and the front row of these conferences

  1897

  00:56:28.370 --> 00:56:29.470

  how cool is that

  1898

  00:56:29.470 --> 00:56:30.790

  i love that

  1899

  00:56:30.790 --> 00:56:32.210

  and i love the link

  1900

  00:56:32.210 --> 00:56:33.690

  to imposter feelings

  1901

  00:56:33.690 --> 00:56:35.930

  because sometimes the imposter phenomenon

  1902

  00:56:35.930 --> 00:56:36.630

  can tell us

  1903

  00:56:36.630 --> 00:56:37.870

  that i'm only good enough

  1904

  00:56:37.870 --> 00:56:39.050

  if i know everything

  1905

  00:56:39.050 --> 00:56:41.450

  and it's impossible to know everything

  1906

  00:56:41.450 --> 00:56:42.410

  and actually

  1907

  00:56:42.410 --> 00:56:44.730

  being a lifelong learner

  1908

  00:56:44.730 --> 00:56:46.370

  who is able to continue

  1909

  00:56:46.370 --> 00:56:47.690

  to take on new evidence

  1910

  00:56:47.690 --> 00:56:49.230

  and new insights

  1911

  00:56:49.230 --> 00:56:50.290

  and apply them

  1912

  00:56:50.290 --> 00:56:52.510

  and change the way we thought before

  1913

  00:56:52.510 --> 00:56:54.770

  change the way we behaved before

  1914

  00:56:54.770 --> 00:56:55.850

  so he went from

  1915

  00:56:55.850 --> 00:56:57.290

  trying to learn everything

  1916

  00:56:57.290 --> 00:56:59.570

  to not learning anything at all

  1917

  00:56:59.570 --> 00:57:00.950

  to i'm going to absorb

  1918

  00:57:00.950 --> 00:57:01.890

  as much as i can

  1919

  00:57:01.890 --> 00:57:03.790

  knowing that i will never be finished

  1920

  00:57:04.570 --> 00:57:06.730

  three very different life stages

  1921

  00:57:06.730 --> 00:57:08.710

  and he's not beating himself up

  1922

  00:57:08.710 --> 00:57:10.310

  about that change

  1923

  00:57:10.310 --> 00:57:10.850

  that's it

  1924

  00:57:10.850 --> 00:57:12.110

  he's excited

  1925

  00:57:12.110 --> 00:57:13.770

  to learn the new things

  1926

  00:57:13.770 --> 00:57:14.890

  there's a joy there

  1927

  00:57:14.890 --> 00:57:16.090

  yeah which is why he probably

  1928

  00:57:16.590 --> 00:57:18.170

  stayed so young for so long

  1929

  00:57:18.630 --> 00:57:19.930

  and this has been fascinating

  1930

  00:57:19.930 --> 00:57:20.710

  i knew it would be

  1931

  00:57:20.710 --> 00:57:22.730

  we would have to have you back a third time

  1932

  00:57:22.730 --> 00:57:25.090

  later on to see what else you can bring to us

  1933

  00:57:25.090 --> 00:57:26.430

  what have i not asked you

  1934

  00:57:26.430 --> 00:57:27.990

  that is really important for us to know

  1935

  00:57:29.250 --> 00:57:30.850

  we've covered a lot of ground

  1936

  00:57:31.390 --> 00:57:33.690

  but perhaps the most important thing is

  1937

  00:57:37.140 --> 00:57:39.380

  what is it about the imposter phenomenon

  1938

  00:57:39.380 --> 00:57:42.160

  that people are not willing to let go of

  1939

  00:57:42.700 --> 00:57:44.620

  because i think a lot of people

  1940

  00:57:44.620 --> 00:57:47.320

  are clinging to feeling like an imposter

  1941

  00:57:47.320 --> 00:57:48.680

  for some reason

  1942

  00:57:48.680 --> 00:57:51.900

  it's serving them in some way

  1943

  00:57:52.640 --> 00:57:54.120

  they say they hate it

  1944

  00:57:54.120 --> 00:57:55.220

  and they do

  1945

  00:57:55.220 --> 00:57:57.240

  but when it comes to

  1946

  00:57:57.240 --> 00:57:58.720

  releasing that feeling

  1947

  00:57:58.720 --> 00:58:00.740

  or releasing the need to behave

  1948

  00:58:00.740 --> 00:58:02.480

  in response to that feeling

  1949

  00:58:03.020 --> 00:58:04.540

  they're not ready to do so

  1950

  00:58:04.540 --> 00:58:06.360

  they think it makes them sharper

  1951

  00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:07.840

  they think it gives them an edge

  1952

  00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.520

  they think it stops them from

  1953

  00:58:10.520 --> 00:58:12.700

  hubris or overconfidence

  1954

  00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:14.460

  and yet

  1955

  00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:16.120

  it is impeding their performance

  1956

  00:58:16.120 --> 00:58:17.460

  in so many ways

  1957

  00:58:17.980 --> 00:58:19.780

  and at what cost

  1958

  00:58:19.780 --> 00:58:22.000

  are they willing to continue to do this

  1959

  00:58:23.120 --> 00:58:25.000

  my last question for you today

  1960

  00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:26.340

  comes from a listener

  1961

  00:58:26.340 --> 00:58:28.320

  is we started a process

  1962

  00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:29.520

  a few weeks ago of alerting

  1963

  00:58:29.520 --> 00:58:30.920

  and saying we've got this guest

  1964

  00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:31.600

  coming on board

  1965

  00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:33.120

  we've got this topic coming on board

  1966

  00:58:33.740 --> 00:58:34.780

  if you've any question

  1967

  00:58:34.780 --> 00:58:35.540

  just let us know

  1968

  00:58:35.540 --> 00:58:37.660

  and a question that was sent in

  1969

  00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:39.660

  to be asked of you

  1970

  00:58:40.460 --> 00:58:41.920

  the resident expert

  1971

  00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:42.820

  on imposterism

  1972

  00:58:42.820 --> 00:58:44.020

  and all things to do with that

  1973

  00:58:44.020 --> 00:58:46.040

  is it possible

  1974

  00:58:46.040 --> 00:58:48.720

  that I can feel very competent

  1975

  00:58:48.720 --> 00:58:51.360

  and it doesn't have any kind of

  1976

  00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.320

  destructive impact on me at all

  1977

  00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:55.140

  in many aspects of my life

  1978

  00:58:55.840 --> 00:58:57.320

  but one aspect of my life

  1979

  00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:00.020

  I can feel very imposter oriented

  1980

  00:59:00.020 --> 00:59:02.880

  and it does have an impact on me

  1981

  00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:04.880

  so I'm not using competence

  1982

  00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:06.180

  in a way of over-functioning

  1983

  00:59:06.180 --> 00:59:07.700

  I'm managing that quite well

  1984

  00:59:07.700 --> 00:59:09.440

  but I actually find myself

  1985

  00:59:10.040 --> 00:59:11.400

  really doubting myself

  1986

  00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:13.120

  and therefore working really hard

  1987

  00:59:13.120 --> 00:59:15.040

  or working on the wrong things regularly

  1988

  00:59:15.040 --> 00:59:16.260

  in one aspect of my life

  1989

  00:59:16.730 --> 00:59:17.840

  this is a question

  1990

  00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:20.160

  that I get asked all the time

  1991

  00:59:20.160 --> 00:59:23.040

  so we all hold these

  1992

  00:59:23.040 --> 00:59:24.540

  multiple different roles

  1993

  00:59:24.540 --> 00:59:25.880

  in life

  1994

  00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:27.180

  we are workers

  1995

  00:59:27.180 --> 00:59:27.920

  we're bosses

  1996

  00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:28.840

  we're employees

  1997

  00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:29.840

  we're business owners

  1998

  00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:30.640

  we're parents

  1999

  00:59:30.640 --> 00:59:32.240

  we are on sports teams

  2000

  00:59:32.240 --> 00:59:33.280

  we're volunteers

  2001

  00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:34.420

  we're community members

  2002

  00:59:34.420 --> 00:59:35.400

  we're friends

  2003

  00:59:36.290 --> 00:59:37.820

  and in certain aspects

  2004

  00:59:37.820 --> 00:59:39.000

  we feel very confident

  2005

  00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:40.180

  and very capable

  2006

  00:59:40.180 --> 00:59:41.780

  we feel very accepted

  2007

  00:59:41.780 --> 00:59:43.300

  we feel a sense of belonging

  2008

  00:59:43.300 --> 00:59:45.480

  we know that our contribution is valued

  2009

  00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:47.640

  and then in other circumstances

  2010

  00:59:47.640 --> 00:59:49.980

  we feel like imposters

  2011

  00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:51.640

  we feel like we're faking it

  2012

  00:59:52.180 --> 00:59:54.060

  so maybe you've been

  2013

  00:59:54.060 --> 00:59:56.540

  a highly successful business person

  2014

  00:59:56.540 --> 00:59:58.460

  but then in midlife

  2015

  00:59:58.460 --> 01:00:00.160

  you decide to take up running

  2016

  01:00:00.740 --> 01:00:03.320

  and you feel like an imposter

  2017

  01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:04.640

  every time you show up

  2018

  01:00:04.640 --> 01:00:05.520

  you feel weird

  2019

  01:00:05.520 --> 01:00:07.180

  putting the bib on for the races

  2020

  01:00:07.180 --> 01:00:08.660

  you feel like you're so slow

  2021

  01:00:08.660 --> 01:00:09.900

  and so shuffling

  2022

  01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:11.180

  and everybody's looking at you

  2023

  01:00:11.180 --> 01:00:12.120

  who's that old guy

  2024

  01:00:12.120 --> 01:00:13.840

  trying to fit in

  2025

  01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:15.380

  with the fit young things

  2026

  01:00:15.380 --> 01:00:16.640

  You talking to me?

  2027

  01:00:18.180 --> 01:00:19.680

  Yeah maybe it's at a yoga class

  2028

  01:00:19.680 --> 01:00:21.220

  maybe it's at a cooking class

  2029

  01:00:21.220 --> 01:00:22.980

  maybe it's when you're doing parent help

  2030

  01:00:22.980 --> 01:00:24.440

  at your child's school

  2031

  01:00:24.440 --> 01:00:25.940

  and you suddenly have this feeling

  2032

  01:00:25.940 --> 01:00:27.280

  of I don't belong here

  2033

  01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:30.140

  or maybe you've done everything really well

  2034

  01:00:30.140 --> 01:00:31.420

  and then suddenly you're being asked

  2035

  01:00:31.420 --> 01:00:33.880

  to step onto a broader stage

  2036

  01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:35.440

  so I'd bring it back

  2037

  01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:37.200

  to what I said last episode

  2038

  01:00:37.200 --> 01:00:39.220

  imposter feelings are the price

  2039

  01:00:39.220 --> 01:00:40.480

  you pay for growth

  2040

  01:00:41.420 --> 01:00:42.740

  this is a sign

  2041

  01:00:42.740 --> 01:00:44.380

  that you're finding your edge again

  2042

  01:00:44.380 --> 01:00:45.920

  you're trying something new

  2043

  01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:46.720

  you're growing

  2044

  01:00:47.380 --> 01:00:49.960

  so okay you feel like an imposter

  2045

  01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:50.740

  in this field

  2046

  01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:52.840

  you can notice that

  2047

  01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:54.240

  you can accept it

  2048

  01:00:54.240 --> 01:00:55.300

  and you can decide

  2049

  01:00:55.300 --> 01:00:56.500

  to disrupt

  2050

  01:00:56.500 --> 01:00:58.620

  the dysfunctional cycle of behaviour

  2051

  01:00:58.620 --> 01:01:00.880

  and do what works for you anyway

  2052

  01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:02.640

  to keep being a beginner

  2053

  01:01:02.640 --> 01:01:04.720

  to keep not knowing

  2054

  01:01:04.720 --> 01:01:06.340

  until you do know

  2055

  01:01:06.340 --> 01:01:08.360

  because one day you will know

  2056

  01:01:09.380 --> 01:01:10.680

  I love that Aaron

  2057

  01:01:10.680 --> 01:01:11.780

  but I'm always a pleasure

  2058

  01:01:11.780 --> 01:01:12.580

  to have you on the show

  2059

  01:01:13.130 --> 01:01:15.960

  we have a downloadable guide

  2060

  01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:17.320

  for listeners

  2061

  01:01:17.320 --> 01:01:18.880

  to download from this episode

  2062

  01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:20.940

  based upon all of your wisdom

  2063

  01:01:20.940 --> 01:01:22.360

  so for anyone who wants that

  2064

  01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:23.240

  go onto their website

  2065

  01:01:23.240 --> 01:01:24.640

  don'tgiveomany.com

  2066

  01:01:24.640 --> 01:01:26.040

  and you'll find it there

  2067

  01:01:26.040 --> 01:01:27.280

  Aaron can't wait to have you back

  2068

  01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:27.900

  a third time

  2069

  01:01:28.560 --> 01:01:30.060

  thank you so much for having me

  2070

  01:01:30.060 --> 01:01:31.220

  Bod it's always a pleasure

  2071

  01:01:31.220 --> 01:01:33.000

  thanks for listening to this podcast

  2072

  01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:34.720

  I hope you enjoyed it

  2073

  01:01:34.720 --> 01:01:36.520

  feel free to subscribe or like

  2074

  01:01:36.520 --> 01:01:37.520

  on any platform

  2075

  01:01:37.520 --> 01:01:38.820

  that you're watching or listening to

  2076

  01:01:38.820 --> 01:01:40.000

  it means a lot to us

  2077

  01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:41.240

  and if you have any comments

  2078

  01:01:41.240 --> 01:01:42.180

  please drop them

  2079

  01:01:42.180 --> 01:01:43.220

  into the comment section

  2080

  01:01:43.220 --> 01:01:45.160

  of course share this episode

  2081

  01:01:45.160 --> 01:01:45.900

  with your friends

  2082

  01:01:45.900 --> 01:01:47.540

  we know they love that

  2083

  01:01:47.540 --> 01:01:48.840

  and in the meantime

  2084

  01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:50.300

  don't let the old man in