Separation isn't what wrecks a kid. What happens after it is. If you've replayed the night you told them apart, hunting their faces for the damage you did, you've probably already decided you're the bad guy in this story. You might be wrong. Naomi Cao is a divorce coach who came on the show in April, in one of its most listened-to episodes. Dr Marcelle Moore is a clinical psychologist who built her practice, Family Jigsaws, around kids living through exactly this. Neither of them pretends you'll get all of it right, or that any of it stops hurting on a schedule. But what actually damages your kids isn't the split. It's the conflict they get caught in the middle of, and the parent who checks out of the hard feelings instead of sitting in them. Most of that is still yours to decide. Start with the next handover. It matters more than you think.
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Meet the Guests
Dr Marcelle Moore
Dr Marcelle Moore is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Family Jigsaws Psychology Practice in Bondi Junction, Sydney, with more than 20 years working with children and families, including through separation and divorce.
She created the Sitting in the Yuck framework, an attachment-informed approach to helping parents stay connected with their kids through hard feelings, and is the author of the children's book Even Lions Get Scared, winner of the 2025 Ink Book Prize for Best Children's Fiction.
She also wrote the chapter on her framework in the international bestseller Raising Teens Who Talk to You.
Naomi Cao
Naomi Cao is a Sydney divorce coach who first appeared on Don't Let the Old Man In in April 2026, in what Pod has called one of the show's most listened-to episodes, talking through her own experience of separation.
She works with people navigating divorce and co-parenting.
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:28:09 Unknown Naomi. Marcelle, welcome to don’t let the old man. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Good to have you, back Here. Naomi. Welcome back. Yes, we've we've had you on before in one of our most watched episodes, because the notion of divorcing well is such a contradiction in terms of such an important conversation. And you suggested we have another conversation with Marcel and you all about the children in the process, because it's often the forgotten party in the middle of that conversation. 00:00:28:09 - 00:00:51:14 Unknown So it's a really, really important conversation. So glad to have you both here. What will we hear today? What will our audience get from our conversation? I think from our perspective, we're really hoping that the audience will get some practical tools and some, I guess, some moments to reflect and think about where children fit into the divorce separation process. 00:00:51:14 - 00:01:16:02 Unknown Because certainly my experience and I think your experience, as well as being in mediation and the court process, there's often lots of talk about the adults, the parents, the houses and, and what happens with all the stuff and the practical arrangements. But certainly in my clinical rooms, I'm acutely aware that one person that's not in there and that they often tell me, you know, this isn't fair because we're not getting to decide anything. 00:01:16:07 - 00:01:39:04 Unknown It's a child. And so that's what I'm really hoping this conversation will bring some value to the audience for whoever may be at the starting process of this, or who may be in the middle of it. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, I think so many times as well. We hear the discussions, especially in divorcing parents. When they do have kids, they always say in the best interest of the child, in the best interests of the child. 00:01:39:04 - 00:02:04:23 Unknown And we hear that a lot. But what does that actually mean? And people wave that terminology around quite a fair bit between the parties. So and I'm hoping there'll be opportunity to talk about, you know, just over the years, certainly some of the very recurrent themes I've heard in children, from being really little to being teenagers, because they are recurrent themes. 00:02:04:23 - 00:02:41:13 Unknown And I think there's an awful lot to be learned. And I think that's why we're really passionate in this area about, you know, being able to support and help parents at the beginning of this journey and perhaps being able to prep them in some way to go into that mediation space. So they're actually really thinking about their child and giving them some tools and skills to perhaps be able to separate off the parenting part from all the complex feelings they are experiencing regarding the breakdown of the adult relationship, which is very hard, trying to separate them out and be mindful of that very, very hard. 00:02:41:13 - 00:03:05:14 Unknown Which is why you have people in your clinical room chatting to you. Let me start here. 68% of parents who were interviewed in that real separation report that came out in 2026 said they'd said a lot longer in the relationship because of children. And yet these research also shows that possibly is not the best thing to do in terms of the impact. 00:03:05:20 - 00:03:22:20 Unknown Naomi, when you were on our show last time, you you did a great job of explaining to us how you help couples and men have the conversation with their partner so they can try to separate in a way that doesn't blow the whole place up. And you you shared a whole lot of strategies around that which which our listeners really loved. 00:03:22:20 - 00:03:39:07 Unknown And indeed, on the back of that, some listeners gave us questions, which I'm going to put you guys at the end of today. So that was really helpful. Marcel, you're coming from a different angle. What's your mission and what do you try to do every day? Who do you try to help? So in my room, it's very interesting because I have a mixture of people who present in my room. 00:03:39:10 - 00:04:10:05 Unknown I have parents sometimes who come together, and they're really invested in trying to navigate this very unpredictable life event and really to think about their children and to really think carefully and thoughtfully around how do you even begin to tell your children you're separating? So they actually acknowledge that they are in a different time to the children? So that's one set of parents that I would see. 00:04:10:07 - 00:04:32:19 Unknown The other set of parents are the parents who have already initiated or in the middle of separation, divorce, and they've got a certain way down the road and the children are struggling. They're really not coping very well at all. And there's a range I'm sure we'll get into this in this conversation of how children often present when they're struggling. 00:04:32:21 - 00:04:57:20 Unknown So those would be the sort of two, I suppose, the most the majority of of people that I would see in my rooms. And I think it's important to see that actually, when a lot of thoughtfulness, that first group I mentioned, when there's a lot of thoughtfulness that is done, then the children don't actually come into my room because they have parents who are navigating the trickiness. 00:04:57:21 - 00:05:17:07 Unknown Now, important to say is not perfect. There is no perfect parenting, but they are. I'm sure we'll talk about this later too, but they're sitting in the yuck of their children's feelings. There's enough space for their grief in a different space where they have their own supports. And there is also the children's grief, and there's an acknowledgment of that loss. 00:05:17:09 - 00:05:46:11 Unknown So those children never come to see me because they don't need to. You know, that takes a lot of awareness from the parents point of view, isn't it? And really recognizing that everybody comes, to that point at different stages? Yes. And really acknowledging that and really recognizing that and and naming it. Because then once you name it, you then you can actually focus on how to make it better or how to reduce that, that shock or that blow of to. 00:05:46:12 - 00:06:29:06 Unknown Yes. Yeah. And so I was just going to add one last thing is I come from a place where we're at all possible. And obviously there's different complexities in this in terms of if there's violence or coercive control or very, you know, tricky things that that parents need separate support for. But my general, ethos is to include both parents in whatever that looks like, whether or not it is that parents can be in the same room or on zoom, or I often offer separate appointments for parents because I really want moms, dads, whoever is caring and loving children to be present in this discussion. 00:06:29:06 - 00:06:52:06 Unknown So everybody is on the same page, because that's actually really critical for children. And that's really important because, as we know, a lot of followers are estranged in these conversations for a whole lot of reasons, and not just for that, but a lot of foreigners are. So they desire and I know you're the same. Last time we met Naomi, the desire to have dads in the conversation, even if it's on zoom, at least they're in the conversation. 00:06:52:06 - 00:07:09:19 Unknown And you told me a story about someone being on a zoom call with the camera switched off. They were just there. That's so important. Yeah, you've already alluded to this answer to my first question, but I want to ask you anyway. So I think for the course of this conversation, going to use the word separation, because separation doesn't always mean divorce. 00:07:09:19 - 00:07:30:13 Unknown But every divorce starts with a separation. So let's just use the word separation. A lot of us as parents and I went through a divorce, as you both know, a lot of those parents carry a lot of guilt. Yeah, I am causing harm to my child by this separation. Is separation harmful to children? So I think in my experience. 00:07:30:16 - 00:08:14:00 Unknown So I've worked with families and kids for over 26 years. I think we have to acknowledge separation is a loss. It's a loss of something that you have. You have built, you know, in the concept of family and what home means. So there is loss, there is grief. But I guess as I was saying previously, if parents are supported and thoughtful and able to do that exceptionally difficult thing of separating off their own feelings and the adult relationship to really, really think about their children, then separation in itself long term doesn't need to be harmful. 00:08:14:02 - 00:08:56:09 Unknown So I think that, you know, a lot of the long term research shows that children post separation. If parents have been able to help and support them in the way they've needed, there isn't an impact, sort of adverse impact on the psychological health. It is the children who are in the middle of the separation, who are used as the messengers, the children where disconnection happens, the children where there's such high parental conflict that they either there is not the space to see them in the way they need to be seen, or else the parents are so preoccupied. 00:08:56:10 - 00:09:18:19 Unknown And all the things that I know Naomi will talk to, that the child then begins to develop a sense of either, I'm okay, and they just hold themselves together. Now they're the children we'll talk about later that we're more worried about, or else that child will begin to fall apart. But there's no one to catch them. 00:09:18:20 - 00:09:39:17 Unknown Yeah, yeah. So I would say that it's the disconnection that actually has the biggest impact on children's mental health, and particularly when this high level conflict is that different depending on the aged child, you know, a young child versus a teenager. Is there any variances with that? So there is a lot of variances and how that shows up in children. 00:09:39:17 - 00:10:03:16 Unknown So for example and and it's interesting. And Naomi, I'm sure you'll talk to this too about, you know, where the law sets and and you know, children's views are certainly taken more into account now the older they get. But my understanding is there isn't a magic age. No, no, there isn't a magic age where the kids get to decide. 00:10:03:20 - 00:10:28:13 Unknown They do look at the child's maturity. There isn't a magic age that says, okay, 13 is the magic number that they need to get to. But yeah, it depends on the maturity of the child. I know that in some instances they when they do have, family reports, and you do have a psychologist or a social worker asking the questions for the children. 00:10:28:15 - 00:10:52:19 Unknown In those situations, it's very stressful for the kids as well, because whatever answer they have, sometimes it gets used against them when they get home. So when the report comes out and mum or dad sees the report and says, well, why did you say that to them? Why did you say that? That happened in our household, and the poor child is caught in the middle and caught in that conflict. 00:10:52:19 - 00:11:17:09 Unknown So they, they, they don't know what the right thing to say is. And, and then they shut down altogether. So and it's interesting in that process, for many years in London, I worked as an expert witness in court, and I still do a lot of legal court reports. And I'm very acutely aware that at one, one day these children may read these reports. 00:11:17:11 - 00:11:41:08 Unknown And so that's a big responsibility I take really, really to my heart when I'm writing. And I think what sometimes we forget we're asking children to go and speak to somebody they don't know. They have no relationship, there's no relational safety there. And we're asking them to be the most vulnerable they can. We're asking them to have no divided loyalties. 00:11:41:14 - 00:12:02:09 Unknown So I've had experiences, certainly with families over the years where kids have said things that are absolutely not what they want, but they're so frightened of the impact. Exactly as you were saying, they're so terrified of that impact. They say these things, and then they roll into the court process, and then they're locked in until they're 18. Yeah. 00:12:02:11 - 00:12:41:11 Unknown So you know how, how, how does a child put aside loyalties to be undivided? Like, how is that possible? I mean, I think it's not, but I think what I've seen again, sometimes over the years is the burden of being stuck in the middle of high conflict. Sometimes children actually do choose a parent, not because they love that parent more, but because being in the middle is so stressful and so often they will choose the parent, perhaps, who is likely to be more reactive in the situation because it's easier to go to that space than it is to fight to be with that, you know, with the other parent. 00:12:41:11 - 00:13:16:11 Unknown So I work a lot sometimes with heartbroken parents where children have chosen the other parent in spite of court orders and helping them somehow, even though they're experiencing the most awful pain and rejection to keep showing up for that child, keep showing up. And it's so incredibly painful. The amount of men I have met through this podcast, but also through my my executive coaching life who are in that book, that exact role where for whatever reason, the children have taken the side of their mum. 00:13:16:15 - 00:13:34:18 Unknown Yeah. Often the dad is someone who's an executive there for away from Home for a lot. So therefore they have a lot more face to face time with their mom, and that might be part of it. Maybe it might be. It might be that, as you said, the mom is more reactive in the situation. I don't know, but either way, the outcome is still the same. 00:13:34:20 - 00:13:55:21 Unknown The children are not talking to the dad. Yeah, dad is devastated that that is alone. Kids are not getting access either they're not getting it or they don't want it either way. So happening. And I think that's the worst outcome in terms of everybody's hurt for a long, long time. And the amount of men I've met who I keep showing up ten years later, I'm still showing up. 00:13:55:21 - 00:14:21:01 Unknown But there's there's there's no relationship. And for them, they're trying to figure out, what do I do? I just give up. And that's just a really hard place to be. Yeah, and I think that's where I'm really passionate as well, in working with the parent who perhaps the child has chosen to be with are under the importance of when there isn't any safety and risk issues, because we do have to think about that separately. 00:14:21:03 - 00:14:49:05 Unknown About the importance of of a child loves both parents and has had whatever that relationship looks like with either parent. But it's important to that child. How can we best support that? How can we facilitate that? And again, you know, often I, I can't I encourage parents to be able to look at their own origin story, to look at what is happening, what are the triggers for them in this space. 00:14:49:05 - 00:15:11:04 Unknown Because, you know, sometimes and I guess a question I sometimes ask them is, you know, these decisions you're making, I want you for just a second to think, would you have the same answer or the same actions if it wasn't involving your ex at all? And I think sometimes that really helps people to pause, and it's very painful. 00:15:11:10 - 00:15:36:02 Unknown And so I don't want to minimize it in any way, but it helps them to reflect and think actually, perhaps not. And that gives us a starting point for the conversation to think about children. And then to really to go back to your point, to really think about then you know, what is in the best interests of the kids then, and how can we facilitate that relationship? 00:15:36:08 - 00:15:59:06 Unknown And I suppose the other thing you and I have talked about a lot is about what does connection mean? Yes, because connection is not about who, you know, a kid where they lay their head on a pillow. I think that's the biggest. Yeah thing. Yeah. A lot of people mistaken overnights, as that's the only way that they'll have the connection with their children. 00:15:59:08 - 00:16:24:08 Unknown And, I think that's, that's usually a big driver. People think, oh, well, it's I need to have fight for that night. Three nights a fortnight, four nights a fortnight. As the point of connection when it's. It could be little acts in between. Yeah, between. Yeah. You know, picking them up from school, sharing an ice cream and having that mild interaction or little interactions. 00:16:24:12 - 00:16:45:04 Unknown Those silly moments, can be like, I know for my kids even, you know, like the times when they go, oh, mum, have a look at this. And you just go, oh, what am I looking at? Yeah. What am I looking at again? But it's so insignificant to us. But it's important for them and interesting. Yeah, yeah. Can we go there. 00:16:45:10 - 00:17:09:03 Unknown Can we walk through What have you learned from the child's point of view as to what they want? And I'm, I was surprised. I was doing some research ahead of you guys coming in. And Constance Aarons wrote a book in 2004 called We're Still Family, which interviewed 170 plus, teenage or adult children of divorce to say, okay, what do you now think about you experience now? 00:17:09:03 - 00:17:23:15 Unknown And the biggest thing was the all the they all said one same thing, which is I just want my parents to be able to be in the same room. That'd be good. Right. And but over half of them had said, I've got a better relationship with my dad now that he's no longer with my mum, which could be reflective of either party. 00:17:23:21 - 00:17:54:11 Unknown Yeah. What do you guys think is from your work? What do kids actually want? If they have a voice in this, what will this tell us? They absolutely don't want to be in the middle of it. They don't want to be the messenger. And I often say to parents, you know, when your kid comes home and they are distressed because transitions are stressful, because actually, if we think about it, kids are the ones moving between the different spaces. 00:17:54:13 - 00:18:20:02 Unknown And I think the most pronounced and heartbreaking thing that I have heard over and over and over again from particularly from school age and teenagers. So that's kind of going back to your earlier point is, they say in that moment when I was told about my parents separation, I didn't just lose my family, I lost my home. And what I'm acutely aware of. 00:18:20:02 - 00:18:46:11 Unknown And I know you and I have thought a lot about this is the language that's used. The narrative changes. Kids don't refer to a place as home anymore. They talk about dad's place, mum's place. It's not there have got no place, no sense of belonging. There are moving from one space to the other. And so sometimes in my work with parents, I'm helping them construct, you know, a narrative about home. 00:18:46:17 - 00:19:07:10 Unknown And so that children begin to use that phrasing. My home. Yeah. The two homes they have and what that means, and I suppose I'm very careful in my practice around that too. So would you would you use, encourage them to use language like my, my Gladesville home and my Lane Cove home, as opposed to my mom's home and my dad's home? 00:19:07:15 - 00:19:28:23 Unknown Yes. Yeah. Because it's theirs. And I want, you know, I think kids need to have an identifiable safe space because if we think about the concept of home, what is home mean? It means safety. And having to pack all that stuff between them. Oh I have parents when they decide. Oh no I pay the other parent child support. 00:19:28:23 - 00:19:51:04 Unknown So they have to provide all the clothes. I, I really break it down to them. And I said do you really want your child to be packing all that stuff, going over to your place for 3 or 4 days, then bringing all that back. And then there's a missing sock and a pair of shoes and all that stuff and that whole conflict start again. 00:19:51:04 - 00:20:15:24 Unknown And then, you know, a lot of the times the children will remember, remember to bring that pair of shoes home from mum's place or from dad's place. I mean, I've even heard horrific stories about kids coming back from either parents place, and they refused to move away from the front door until the child strips down all the clothes and give it to the parent to take home. 00:20:16:01 - 00:20:34:10 Unknown And that's the extreme where you just think, oh my God, that reminds me of that. That kid's book, The Suitcase Kid. And, I think the character Andy, and he's going back and forth between his parents and all he had was a little rabbit with him. That's the only possession that was his, because everything else belonged in the various houses. 00:20:34:11 - 00:21:05:20 Unknown So his home was his little rabbit I was carrying. He was carrying with him between the two houses. And I really, I suppose, from this conversation, want parents to really, really think about that, because these belongings that parents have paid for and I understand in separation finances can be really stressful and really hard, but those belongings belong to the child, and those belongings actually don't represent like a lunchbox that they've picked, you know, from Kmart or wherever it is. 00:21:05:24 - 00:21:34:03 Unknown That's not just a lunchbox. That's that's a thing that belongs in their everyday life that they connect to. And so, you know, over the years, there has been so many situations where parents, you know, they've maybe got an understandably so fed up with the other parent who's taken the lunchboxes and not put them back again. And so, you know, sometimes children end up with plastic bottles and Ziploc bags because they don't want to put lunchboxes in the space anymore. 00:21:34:08 - 00:21:59:17 Unknown Or the blazer that has a special badges, and one parent paid for it, so the other parent has their blazer and those kind of things that I want. I suppose I would like parents to think about children almost being like these little people who every time something happens like that, it's like a burden that goes in their pocket, in their pocket, and that gets and it gets heavier and heavier. 00:21:59:17 - 00:22:26:03 Unknown And that's where the impact on mental health happens, because these children carry those little micro moments through the years. And then, you know, as humans, we can only take so much. Yeah. And I guess it goes back into brain development for kids because, you know, the prefrontal cortex, which is the part that, you know, we all have as adults, is not fully developed around, you know, till 24 or 25. 00:22:26:05 - 00:22:53:17 Unknown So children are trying to manage this very adult concept that they actually didn't ask for. They had no part in this decision with an underdeveloped brain. Yeah. What I'm hearing you both say is when people are going through a separation, as we said before, they do it for a particular reason. You know, there's a reason why people are separate, didn't want to be together, but they end up fighting over the child as if the child was a possession as opposed to a child. 00:22:53:19 - 00:23:14:19 Unknown So if you think of everything you guys have just said, either parent or treating that child as my position versus your position, and therefore the blazer I bought is part of my possession and you can't have that blazer. Whereas in fact, what we need to be doing here is going the child is the human being and it's their blazer, not mine or yours. 00:23:14:24 - 00:23:46:02 Unknown And indeed it's their lunchbox and it's their belonging. And that's what that's what we have to do, like. And it could be sort of the type of conversations as well. When are you going to come and pick up your son? You know that type of tone. I think that child will actually end up carrying that. Because it has a negative, sounding to that, you know, and, so it's when, whenever I hear people say my son or my daughter, I say, oh, owl. 00:23:46:05 - 00:24:08:20 Unknown And we, we correct that language from the very beginning just to remind both parents that it doesn't belong to, you know, like, that child doesn't belong to either parent. But yeah, it's it's a child that they share together. So just to wrap it up, so is a is home versus dad's house and mom's house. This is your home. 00:24:08:22 - 00:24:30:00 Unknown It's it's the child's belongings. The child's blazer, the child's lunchbox the child's clothes. And they go back and forth, which logistically be difficult. But either way they go back and forth. And it's our child. Not your son or my son. Yes. Let's start there. If you do that alone, you're doing a good job. And one thing I would just add as well is the messaging. 00:24:30:00 - 00:25:03:06 Unknown Sometimes children have really struggled, with compartmentalizing both spaces, both homes, because they're worried about the impact, you know, saying to one parent, oh, I had a really good time, and I did this, and I did that. And what I often say to parents is to remember that you can be seeing the words, but your body is language is seeing something completely different because, you know, from when we're a teeny weeny, when we're born, we construct our emotional world through our nonverbal children. 00:25:03:07 - 00:25:28:15 Unknown Pick up. If you are seeing something that you genuinely do not mean or you are not feeling. So it's those moments on the doorstep. In those transitional moments where children are. And as human beings, we do this. We survey the world and we survey the people we interact with to see is there some threat here? And children very quickly, then learn what is safe to see and what is not safe to see. 00:25:28:17 - 00:25:54:03 Unknown And so again, that becomes the burden. And so sometimes as well, when they come with something that is very hard for a parent to hear, such as if that child is talking about a parent's new partner, for example. And that is really, really hard for an adult to hold, but so important to hold. And because that's an opportunity to let that child know that this is a safe space, you can bring your world. 00:25:54:03 - 00:26:18:22 Unknown And here it doesn't need to be compartmentalized. And sometimes I ask parents to give themselves permission somehow for their child to be curious and to ask questions in that moment, even though it's exceptionally hard. But they need to take that hardness, that those big, big feelings into the adult world to manage those and not in front of their child. 00:26:18:24 - 00:26:41:12 Unknown Yeah for sure. You know, some advice I was given, by a very, very, very wise woman when I, when I separated from Kate, said to me, first of all, never, ever, ever say a bad word about your children's mom in front of them. And to the best of my knowledge, I don't think I have, but, I suspect I might have without that advice. 00:26:41:12 - 00:26:59:15 Unknown But the other thing she said to me was always say good things about their mama. Your mom is a great mom. Your mom loves you. Your mom, even if you don't believe that or feel that, say it because it's very difficult for you to to say that kind of stuff and everything else. So if you start with that, you're less likely to say anything else. 00:26:59:16 - 00:27:19:13 Unknown And I find that really, really helpful. And it's kind of that kind of foreshadowing of, yeah, I mean, as I said before, people divorce for a reason and there's often some degree of angst in the at least the early stages of that separation. But if you can start with, your mom or your dad, he's a good parent and they love you. 00:27:19:15 - 00:27:37:17 Unknown Everything's kind of fall away. But it means separating the emotions in that moment. And I would just add to that, that if you put yourself in the shoes and sometimes this is a lot of my work as well. And I'm sure your work too. We ask parents to just stop for a second and think about think about your little five year old. 00:27:37:18 - 00:28:02:03 Unknown Think about your little seven year old. Your 12 year old. What they really just want is that they do want to know that their mom and dad could like each other in some capacity. And even if it is in that co-parenting business relationship capacity, because children feel very burdened, if they feel that parents are going to be in conflict in the same space. 00:28:02:03 - 00:28:20:04 Unknown And that's where we get those divided loyalties. And in those moments, I certainly know over the years kids have talked about, I was so excited to go to my concert and I was going to be on the stage and I was going to be singing, but all I could think about was mom was over there, dad was over there, and I just didn't know what was going to happen at the end. 00:28:20:06 - 00:28:42:09 Unknown So they can't actually enjoy the little moments. Yeah, yeah. They're too they're too focused on managing their parents to make sure that mom's okay and dad's okay. They're they're actually not living in their moment. Yeah. You see that at weddings. Yeah. Like like 20 years later. You know I want to get married in a count of my, my mom and dad at the same table. 00:28:42:09 - 00:29:09:02 Unknown And that's 20 years on right. Yeah. Can I, can I go back to the I want to start with you to the stage of, separating. Yes. The couple after. No. Well, in advance before they start to tell the children for sure. Not always, but often. Right. Depending on how the separation has happened. What are you notice or what are your, your clients in terms of how do you go about having that conversation with a child? 00:29:09:04 - 00:29:38:24 Unknown I think a lot of the parents, I mean, depending on how they separated, makes a big difference. I notice that when you have parents who have decided they don't have anything in common anymore, and it's a mutual decision, I find that those parents end up, seeking better outcomes, you know, because they, they know that they might not end up together, but it's still very important for that child to be carried forward, forward in both families. 00:29:39:00 - 00:30:25:15 Unknown Right. So that generally works out better for kids, but it's when relationships end, when one party ends quite abruptly. And I think that the person who actually has made the decision to separate, they've come. It's taken them about two years, probably even longer to come to that decision. I think for our listeners out there who actually have or is, you know, they're deciding to separate, and have made the decision, yet it's all about how they can have, number one, the first conversation with their partner to say that this is what they're thinking and they're thinking of separating, and to wait for that partner to get on board with that feeling. 00:30:25:16 - 00:30:51:06 Unknown At the same it's it's almost like one's on the travel later and the other one's just walking and having to catch up. So I think it's important for both parents to understand the impacts that this is the journey forward. And that might take months. It might take months. And the person who is the instigator for that separation needs to be patient because they're, they need to get the other person on board. 00:30:51:08 - 00:31:21:13 Unknown And when you actually manage that emotion properly, I think then they can have a really productive conversation with the kids. It's when people walk in and say, I want to separate, and the kids are going to spend time with me 5050 then. Then it's like the presents irony. Maserati. Nice as example. Yeah. That's right. And so I think that that's where it there's so much happening in such a short period of time with so many emotions that things start falling apart. 00:31:21:14 - 00:31:42:05 Unknown Let's just blowing it up. Yeah. And the kids are like, oh, hang on. I didn't even realize there was a problem with mom and dad, and and I have to go live with somebody. Don't I get a say? So that is when start, you know. And if not taken with a lot of guidance from professionals, I think that's when it all sort of like falls apart. 00:31:42:07 - 00:31:54:18 Unknown Well, well that conversation, the first one makes a lot of sense and that's, dare I say it, that falls into the conscious uncoupling. Like when Apple gave us a number of years ago. 00:31:54:20 - 00:32:31:09 Unknown I look back now, it is a good phrase. Yeah, but most of us are not in that place. No. And we actually have to allow space for that to happen as well. But I think that by the time that whoever has made that decision, it's already in their mind and they've worked out the logistics of how it's going to look like in their space that they haven't really taken on board what the other parties, you know, the emotional side of the other parties involved because it impacts not only themselves but, their ex-partner as well as the children. 00:32:31:11 - 00:32:56:11 Unknown And it's yeah, we forget that, you know, it's not like you're going out and. Oh, I decide to buy a new dress. That decision of separating has a flow on effect and a domino effect. So that's something. And I'm appreciating there's this. There's no perfect way to do this. Because back to your point. No matter what this grief involved, because my understanding of who my family is, is now no longer true. 00:32:56:13 - 00:33:20:17 Unknown Even if even if I hated the version of my family, still my family. And that's no longer true. What happens near me if the instigator is, separating because they fall in love with somebody else? And that is the reason. What advice or what have you seen about the degree of transparency we share with the child or children? 00:33:20:19 - 00:33:48:06 Unknown Yeah, that's a really tricky one. I think that, for kids, they don't understand about adult emotions, you know, and so to see I mean, realistically, I think everybody knows when the relationships is a little bit stale or you're, you know, treading water and you know that you're not in a good place. But to introduce new people into children's lives or say, oh, I've fallen in love with somebody else. 00:33:48:06 - 00:34:19:05 Unknown I think that's that does a lot to a child as well, because they start to think, well, what did I do something wrong? It is, you know, is our family not enough? And there's a whole identity crisis that they kids go through. And I think what I have seen in these situations is sometimes especially teenagers, and later primary school kids pick up on things and they want to know the wise, they want to know why are you separating? 00:34:19:05 - 00:34:52:23 Unknown And they might push and push and push and sometimes because, you know, it's a very painful space to be in for the parent who feels betrayed, that sometimes things leak out. And then, you know, working with kids who feel absolute range at the other parent. And sometimes in that space, I give them this sort of visual, which is if you imagine a snow globe and you imagine that there's a little picture of your family and the life that you thought you were going to be living, and you shake it. 00:34:52:23 - 00:35:19:07 Unknown And of course, it's very predictable that the glitter comes down and it lands on the bottom. We go back to stability again. But for kids, when whether it is betrayal or indeed just being told about the separation, it's as though and sometimes the betrayal is like the smashing of the snow globe on the ground and everything falls out and separation is sometimes it falls on the ground, but there's cracks. 00:35:19:07 - 00:35:39:08 Unknown Everything is leaking out. The picture is not the same anymore. And I guess what I say to parents is we're trying to introduce this idea really quite quickly to children, that there's going to be two snow globes, and children, I mean, even if we think about it like a book, children are on chapter one, parents may be on chapter six. 00:35:39:08 - 00:36:03:20 Unknown And I do appreciate some parents maybe on chapter one two, because it comes as a big shock. Everyone's on a different timeline. Yeah. But I think the snow globe kids really connect to that. And, and and it holds her sadness as well as the rage. Because for kids, sometimes it is much easier to be angry than it is to be sad. 00:36:04:01 - 00:36:23:19 Unknown Yeah. Because the anger makes them feel like they have power and strength and, and I think to the point of dads as well, you know, like, I'm just thinking about all the boys I work with or the dads I work with. Sometimes anger is the emotion that they've been allowed to have. It's actually not and can do something. 00:36:23:20 - 00:36:50:00 Unknown Yeah. And actually the sadness part is, you know, it's the vulnerability. And so for kids, I do think that snow globe is something that is just very helpful for them for when we keep coming back to that image. Have you asked parents or have you have parents taken the metaphor of snow globe, which I love, by the way that really works, and use that in the conversation with their child? 00:36:50:00 - 00:37:07:10 Unknown I would imagine not. Not just once. It'd be several conversations. Would you actually give a slow globe to the child? So they go, here's here's a snow globe in my Lane Cove home. Here's my snow globe in my other home like that. Have you seen parents do that? We've actually some of the families who've come to see me at the beginning of this journey. 00:37:07:10 - 00:37:24:01 Unknown I've talked a lot about that and used it. And actually, because you can get these Christmas snow globes, actually, I have it from my family where I've got my kid, I don't know where I got it from, but with my kids in it and I say, you know, like this, when they look at that, they go, we're all contained. 00:37:24:01 - 00:37:51:24 Unknown It's a container. It's predictable. Which they were loved, were held. And then when that leaks or breaks, it's shattering, like everything they imagined. Don't even where they clean their teeth at night. Yeah, because separation for kids is about ordinary moments. It's about, you know, again, when you were talking about all that packing of the belongings, it's just it's about I because I think about sometimes the decisions that are made. 00:37:51:24 - 00:38:15:12 Unknown And I mean, there is still no in all these years, it's still no right. Decisions about how do you separate up a kid's life and their time with people. But it's just grief. And yes, that snowglobe was really helpful. And actually, that's a great idea. You know that you have it in, in, in each home. Because actually, what we want to get to is that this is still your family. 00:38:15:18 - 00:38:41:16 Unknown These are two people who still love you for Russia. Just not the same. Just not the same building. But we don't need to snow globes that have different pictures in them, because children want the idea that there's togetherness and that when they have their birthday party or Christmas, which is always heartbreaking. Especially the firsts of anything so hard, but does to have that same. 00:38:41:16 - 00:39:06:05 Unknown So that's consistency in the home, in the homes that they have. I want to come to Christmas and Mother's Day and Father's Day and first, because they are really, really hard. So I want to come back to that, but can I just, stay on the conversation about talking to the child or the children or the teenager or even the adult children, for that matter, because, you know, we don't just separate in her 30s. 00:39:06:06 - 00:39:34:05 Unknown We we do it the whole way through life. Yeah. So you've said to us, Naomi, if you're the instigator, take your time, be patient, make sure your partner is as on board as they might be before you. Then have a conversation with the children. If you're the person who is also just being told for the first time and you're you're one of your instincts might be just to rush to tell the children out of spite is going, he is doing this. 00:39:34:06 - 00:39:51:00 Unknown Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is your father's decision or your mother's decision. Your advisors don't do that. Yeah. Don't. Do not do that. Do not do that as much as you want you to not do that. What's your sense of what. How much information should be shared in the first versus second versus the third type conversation with the child. 00:39:51:01 - 00:40:22:16 Unknown And does that vary depending on age? Almost definitely varies. You know, children don't need to hold that space to to understand why the relationship broke down. I think it's really important to to have the conversation with your children that irrespective of how the family looks, both parents do love the children. It's just that it won't be in the same home, and we're still working out the logistics, but no crazy abrupt changes. 00:40:22:20 - 00:40:59:03 Unknown I find that when you decide to make these great, big changes, for children, I think that's when they feel very unsettled. And it really destabilizes them because adults can move and they have their own way of thinking of, you know, the they realize that the relationship has broken down in their head and they've moved on. But we need to make sure that the children are on the same page, have the conversation on a needs to know basis in a way, teenagers don't need to find out that mum or dad is dating already. 00:40:59:05 - 00:41:32:13 Unknown And I think, parents have this thing. I guess they say, oh, this is mum's new friend that the kids don't know. They know, and we have to be transparent about that in a way. Like once you introduce people into their lives, to not have it just land on them. I know of some people, some people or parents who have actually the kids have woken up one morning. 00:41:32:18 - 00:42:03:20 Unknown Oh, this is dad's friend, and dad's friend is, you know, helping him wash the breakfast or. Yeah, yeah. And so the kids, like, that's not dad's friend. Yeah. That's been a sustained adventure. And so I think, yeah, it's really important to make sure that the kids are stable first before introducing them to partners. And also have that conversation with your ex partner to let them know that you've been dating somebody for a period of time, and you're thinking of introducing the kids, and you wanted to give them the heads up first. 00:42:03:20 - 00:42:35:00 Unknown I think it's really important to let the other parent know, that this is on the cards. You know, where I've seen that gone wrong is not either parents. It's the new date. Who's who's working really hard. I want to I want to be friends with your children. Oh, yeah, and I'm upset when you don't use me early, because I suggest you don't really want me to be around, and and and I find that pressure kind of the sideline pressure into relationship is quite destructive for children. 00:42:35:01 - 00:42:55:06 Unknown It is. Yeah, I think that's. And and when new partners come into the scene as well I mean that's a separate conversation altogether. How much like you said, how much do you push to meet the children? I think that's always a red flag, actually, when the new partners come along and say, oh, you know, we need to I need to meet the adults needs. 00:42:55:09 - 00:43:25:16 Unknown It is about the kids at all. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to share, actually, I do this beautiful thing that I sort of adapted from a research paper. It was. It's called unconditional love bonds, I think, is the paper. And so when I, I'm helping families to begin to have those conversations. So without children in the room, I have the parents or I'm doing it on zoom, whichever, combination I have, I have a blank piece of paper, have lots of different colored textures. 00:43:25:18 - 00:43:47:03 Unknown And I think just to your point, it's about a story and about where you begin is not where you end. And you have to think about children's edges, their developmental stage, how much they can digest of a story. Because I think there is an urge and parents often to tell this whole story, to get it all out there because they're ahead. 00:43:47:04 - 00:44:07:06 Unknown They're on chapter six sometimes. And so it's about actually being able to watch and see when kids receive information. How are they doing with that information? Are they able to digest it? And what I do is just simple. And I said, as I said, I adapted it, but I draw love hearts. Everybody has a different colored love heart. 00:44:07:08 - 00:44:24:00 Unknown So we draw at the beginning the parents and we talk a little bit about their story, because children need to know that they came from a place of love. Because at this point in the story there there's lots of conflict. And so each part, each parent has a different love heart. And we talk a little bit about that story. 00:44:24:00 - 00:44:49:03 Unknown And we have a line, a colored line of connection. Then we talk about whoever the first first child and if there was more children where they came into it. And then we talk about then the separation story, and we changed the color of the line between the parents. So it becomes a co-parent line, which is a different color to the original line, but the colors attaching parents to to the children remain the same. 00:44:49:05 - 00:45:09:22 Unknown And it's quite a really it's a really important visual image to help kids to know that some things are different and some things are the same, and the love that parents have for their kids is the same. I really like that. And to your point, then when there's partners that come into the space, this is like a working picture. 00:45:09:24 - 00:45:31:21 Unknown Yeah. And we add to it and then we add, you know, when blended families come into the space, we go back to that original picture and we just expanding it, maybe getting a bit complex, but it's still the same picture right. Yeah. But what I love about what you said is the color of the line between the parents and the child never changes, which is what you want the child to know. 00:45:31:23 - 00:45:48:10 Unknown And hopefully it's true, of course, but you want the child to know that. And I think that the thing we sometimes forget is for kids. Kids don't sit down and feel comfortable chatting like this. You know, in my room, for example, I've got lots of like a puppet theater. I've got a doll's house, I've got, all different things. 00:45:48:10 - 00:46:09:08 Unknown Even adolescents kind of connect and and they're doing things in the room that play theory and sand therapy sex. Absolutely. But even the drawings, I do a lot of drawings with teenagers, because the right side of our brain is our visual perception. We hold on to visual information, and that's something actually that kids can take away with them over. 00:46:09:08 - 00:46:36:22 Unknown The teenagers are getting them to take a picture of it on their phone, so they can just flick back to it when they need to. I like that, I like that you have a book, an award winning book called Even Lions Get Scared, which is a fantastic title. Thank you. And and you talk about a phrase. When I first read it, I thought, I know exactly what this is from my perspective, which is sitting in the yuck and the work I do with leadership teams. 00:46:36:24 - 00:46:55:12 Unknown Some of the great outcomes come from getting the team to sit in the discomfort as long as possible, in order for the real self just to emerge, or a solution to emerge, and then you, then you follow the path. Otherwise you risk just superficial stuff and nothing ever happens. You've got a different meaning for sitting in the. But it's it has a good outcome. 00:46:55:13 - 00:47:19:11 Unknown Can you explain to us what it means and the framework that sits within that and how you use that? So I came up with this because I think that the nature of life is that we all feel discomfort. So it comes from someone called Dan Siegel, who's an incredible neuro psychiatrist in the States, and he talks about our window of tolerance. 00:47:19:13 - 00:47:59:09 Unknown So we have this window where there's a space where everything feels easy, safe, comfortable. And then there's this other space where everything is feeling yucky discomfort. It doesn't feel good to be in that space. And I guess in my work with families, I think our parenting has changed quite dramatically in the last decade. I think the pendulum has swung in a sort of more, I guess, permissive place where and also what I mean by that is we're rescuing and fixing as well, children, and we're shutting down things. 00:47:59:09 - 00:48:26:23 Unknown And I think, I guess I began doing a lot of thinking about where does this come from, where is this coming from? And, you know, I think a lot of it is cultural, but some of it, I think, is very much attached to parents own stories of origin and what is triggered, you know, when we become parents and I became curious around, especially when children develop language, what is it that is being triggered in parents because we're very reactive in species? 00:48:27:00 - 00:48:45:10 Unknown And I've time and time again over the years, parents have said, oh gosh, you know, I've got my dad's voice, my grandma's voice, my mom's voice and my head. And afterwards I think, oh, why did I do that? So I came up with this idea, you know, that you have to kind of you land the feeling before you launch the lesson. 00:48:45:12 - 00:49:16:05 Unknown And, and I guess in my work, I was beginning to realize the pattern that we, as I said, were reactive. And we're trying to put lessons in. And because I'm really interested in neuroscience, I was like, well, wait a second, children's brains that the the sort of prefrontal cortex where we do all our decision making and our listening or working memory and, you know, all those very important executive functioning skills, it goes offline when we're in reactive mode, when children are in big feeling mode, or when parents adults are in big feeling mode, our brain goes offline. 00:49:16:10 - 00:49:42:19 Unknown So the sitting in the yacht came about with the concept of we need to sit and we almost need to be bigger than the discomfort. We have to sit as a parent in that yuck. We have to be aware of what's going on in our own head. That voice of, you know. Oh gosh, if I spoke to my father like that, if I spoke to my mother like that when our child is because they're really and often say to parents, in this moment, I want you to think about that. 00:49:42:19 - 00:49:59:06 Unknown They're emotionally and neurologically, if they're, say, ten, they're like a three year old, so they actually need you to parent like a three year old. Now, you wouldn't say to a three year old, you can't speak to me like this. And no, no, no, no, no in that moment. Because children can't can't they can't listen, they can't process. 00:49:59:09 - 00:50:20:05 Unknown So the sitting in the yuck is actually sitting alongside your child. And this was particularly pertinent to my work with teens as well. You know, where teens, and especially in the separation space, I think typically can withdraw more. And, you know, we have to think developmentally where they are. They pull away. They might be angry, they might be sullen. 00:50:20:05 - 00:50:46:11 Unknown So how do you, as a parent, begin to step into that space? And I talk a lot about in a chapter in a book I did about micro connections, about looking for those moments and making them, you know, making them mean something in that connection. So you're actually creating relational safety before there's the crisis. So the framework of sitting in the young is sitting alongside your child, giving them this really clear message. 00:50:46:11 - 00:51:10:16 Unknown They're not alone in this moment. And whatever you whatever they're bringing to you is not too big. And then you're validating the feelings. So that's the kind of the I part, if you like. You're validating the child, sitting with the child, being with them, listening to them. And, you know, I often come back round and say to kids, listening is not the same as saying yes, because they often will say, oh, that parent. 00:51:10:16 - 00:51:36:01 Unknown They don't listen to me, they don't understand me. It's not the same as saying yes. It's actually just being with them. You listen and you let them finish. Because actually, parents were very good at jumping in before the child's finished because our heads already gone nowhere. We're not doing that. Definitely not. So we sit with validate and as soon as we validate, what kind of happens is their nervous system begins to calm down because our nervous systems talk to our nervous systems. 00:51:36:03 - 00:51:59:04 Unknown And regulation is not the same as calmness. So when a parent is regulated, that child experiences that regulation. So that core regulation that we have when we holding a baby and we're helping that baby to soothe. And what I see to parents is the trusting in the process, which is the T part is where we are communicating to our child. 00:51:59:04 - 00:52:21:02 Unknown We understand their feeling. We understand how hard this experience must have been for them. We're not trying to correct them in that moment. It isn't without boundaries though, because we get to if you like. The fourth stage is where we begin to then reflect with them and say, actually, the way you spoke to me was not okay. And for some parents, as consequences that go into that space. 00:52:21:04 - 00:52:43:14 Unknown So it's helping parents to just begin to slow the process down. And so I've developed a whole framework around this. And, and it's, it's very much integrates the concept of attachment, the and the poly vehicle theory, which is about safety and about moving through our different emotional states and how we move back to that core regulation space. 00:52:43:18 - 00:53:16:00 Unknown Yeah, that feels to me like a great life skill to have, not just necessarily when you're a parent separating. Because if you think of if you're a leader in the work and you have someone in your team who's hyper emotional, if you have a child who's going through or family members going through any kind of personality change or any kind of addiction type change or anything like that, sitting with them when they're unregulated, just to listen and then validate that must have been hard for you is the fastest way for them to calm down. 00:53:16:00 - 00:53:55:01 Unknown So I love how you apply that. That's what the trick here, of course, is as a parent who's also going through a massive transition, especially if they're the person who didn't make the choice. How do you recommend for that parent to manage themself in order to help manage the child through their biggest transition? I think again, that comes back to a lot of the work we've also talked about, which is about knowing our origin story, because, you know, when we think about parents who rescue and try to fix things, it's because it comes from a place of love. 00:53:55:01 - 00:54:21:17 Unknown It's not from a place of nastiness. It comes from a place of love. Because watching our child or watching a friend, anybody who's having a really hard time struggle is really, really painful. And I think that sometimes parents haven't been given the space to understand their own origin story. And actually, in the separation space, what does separation mean in your culture, in your own family? 00:54:21:19 - 00:54:47:11 Unknown What are your feelings? You know, in terms of sometimes for families it's it's shame. It's being excluded is being seen as a weakness. I mean there's so many complicated spaces. So I often find myself working a lot with parents in this space before we can even get to the parenting parts per se, in terms of what we do with the child in front of us, I can really relate that. 00:54:47:12 - 00:55:08:18 Unknown You know, I grew up in a very Catholic Irish family and the eldest of five children. I was supposed to be a priest because you do that when you're the eldest of five children, and we've had a huge extended family, like 30, 40 cousins in the world, and I wasn't. I'm not the eldest of cousins, but I'd be in the senior ranks of the cousins. 00:55:08:20 - 00:55:36:12 Unknown And when I announced that I was separated, it was like like a volcano had erupted. So I was uninvited from family weddings. I had members of my own family not talk to me for quite a few years. And then something happened that I didn't expect at all. My dad, who was, is on a mural on our wall here in the office who didn't say a lot, like he was a very quiet man. 00:55:36:14 - 00:55:55:00 Unknown And he was, I would say, missing for a lot of my childhood, for a whole lot of other reasons. He took me side once. He said. He said, I wish I had the courage to do what you were doing. But I grew up in a in a time of life. He just didn't that. And I want you to make sure that being happy is important. 00:55:55:00 - 00:56:13:00 Unknown So I want you to know that whatever you choose to do, I think it's the right thing to do. No, it was extraordinary on so many levels. In fact, I got really upset, as I told you that, but on sorry levels, because he just revealed a whole lot about what he was thinking about his own life that we didn't know. 00:56:13:02 - 00:56:32:14 Unknown And it was probably the most honest thing he'd ever said to me, ever. But it was also so much liberty in terms of, okay, I can put up with the fact that other people are not talking to me, but you've just given me permission to go ahead. And in fact, you're you're backing me up. I don't have to feel ashamed. 00:56:32:16 - 00:56:55:03 Unknown It doesn't mean I didn't, but I don't have to. But it's that permission to feel and the permission to follow your pathway. And I think, you know, sometimes that's our greatest gift as well to our child, whether we're small or, you know, or grown up, is allowing you the space to follow the path that you need to without shame. 00:56:55:05 - 00:57:24:22 Unknown And I think, you know, the space hopefully I provide for, for parents particularly, is that we have to address their pain and their sadness and their loss and their grief, because that needs to be addressed and they need to have a space. And whether that is sometimes with me or sometimes I do refer them to my adult colleagues who work in this space, because only then can they be able to do what I'm asking them to do, which is to sit in their own yuck to be able to sit in the child's yuck. 00:57:24:22 - 00:57:49:19 Unknown So sometimes I again, I'm big on visuals and I talk about being on an airplane. Like it's kind of, I'm sorry. It's got to intuitive to put your own mask on before your kids. You're like, what? No, I want them to be okay, but they can't be okay if we're not okay. Yeah. So I mean, that is the strong message because there's so much pain and separation. 00:57:49:24 - 00:58:10:06 Unknown And I think it is sometimes, you know, parents get into the space of blaming one another for things because that's the space that you end up in. But actually there's so much pain and so much pain. We will make mistakes. Like anyone going through the horrors is going to make mistakes no matter what. And it may not be the first year. 00:58:10:06 - 00:58:33:02 Unknown It might be many years later. Right. Ed Tronic did some research called Still Phase, where he looked at, parents and babies connection and how many times, because parents often feel very connected with the child, he said. It's actually it's maximum 30%. And the rest of the time is it's not true. But you actually he's he's a word repair. 00:58:33:04 - 00:58:54:22 Unknown You get back into it and you connect. And, I've been thinking about that metaphor from the perspective of, as we go through a separation, we as parents, we make mistakes. That's not the problem. It's not coming back to repair and be present with the child and even maybe even comment to their child. You know what? I shouldn't have said that yesterday. 00:58:54:22 - 00:59:24:11 Unknown There was a mistake. How do we do that? Because I, I, I, I think a lot of us will make mistakes and that's, that's not okay in the moment, but it's okay if you fix it later. I would imagine children forgive parents if that happens, but is that true? Absolutely. Like one of the things, again, that is a recurrent theme is that stuckness around seeing sorry and around owning your part in something. 00:59:24:13 - 00:59:50:19 Unknown And again, right, rather than blaming the other parent or blaming circumstances or whatever it might be, is, I think the value for a child is when a parent owns that part of whatever has happened and circles back and says, you know, I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have done that. Gosh, I mean, I've raised three children. I'm constantly repairing, you know, like we're not perfect. 00:59:50:19 - 01:00:14:07 Unknown Even child psychologist. No, we are not perfect. Tell us your mistakes. We can help them. She set us up to make that. Have that long? No. Sometimes, you know, my kids give me brilliant feedback, especially in the car. That was the other thing I was going to say. Actually said the car is such a valuable place, and especially like those early morning drop offs for sports and things, they are priceless. 01:00:14:11 - 01:00:32:12 Unknown And that's where kids will sometimes go. Yeah, I can't believe you just said that. Really? And you are supposed to be helping people. Really, you know, so they gave me it back. But I think, you know, like, again, we have to search within ourselves. Why is saying sorry so hard? Why is it that we find it really difficult to own this? 01:00:32:16 - 01:01:07:05 Unknown And I guess in Naomi and I do lots and lots of speaking. And one of my sort of keynotes is around parent leadership, because actually, the first leadership that children ever, ever experienced is parents, you know, and so a great, great leaders for me are the ones who can model by example. So if we want our children to go out and often say to parents, you know, think big picture, you know, if you want your kid to go out in the world and they do the wrong thing and you want them to own that and to see, sorry to a friend or a partner who are a teacher, whoever it may be. 01:01:07:07 - 01:01:38:18 Unknown You need to model that. You need to model that. It's okay. Monkey see, monkey do, isn't it 100%? Yeah. You know, there's another side to that. I've worked with lots and lots of leaders and they'll say to me, you know, they'll get some feedback like you just did in the car, but they'll get an official report, you know, and they're looking at the feedback and they're quite shocked that people are saying this about them when they when the feedback is not positive, often they are less surprised, but grateful when the feedback is really positive. 01:01:38:20 - 01:02:01:04 Unknown But when the feedback is really, really pointed and I say to them. Has anyone outside of work ever said this to you before? Because the natural instinct is to blame. I know who said that. You know, that's because I'm managing them out of the business. Has anyone ever said, yeah, my kids do, my wife does, or my husband does go, well, you know, you are the same person at home and at work under stress. 01:02:01:06 - 01:02:15:18 Unknown So what you were saying is from a leadership point of view, and a lot of leaders who listen to this podcast is, is, you know, you're the way you behave under stress at work. It's the same way you behave at home under stress. Is that the way you want to lead your kids? Yes, and that's a really powerful message. 01:02:15:19 - 01:02:38:07 Unknown Yeah, because it's neurobiological in terms of when our sympathetic nervous system is activated, you know, and we are flooded, we're over, you know, we're overwhelmed. We are in that fight flight space. And so the natural instinct is to blame everybody else in that space. Actually, we have another space that we go into, which is our free space. 01:02:38:07 - 01:03:06:18 Unknown We're totally overwhelmed by what's happening, and we tend to attack ourself in that space. But in the fight, flight space, we are, you know, we're in rage. We're in stress. And we absolutely have these. We all I mean, I often talk to kids about that amazing movie Inside Out, and we talk a lot about the inside. You know, the inside out bruising of separation for kids is that, you know, we have all these different parts to us. 01:03:06:22 - 01:03:30:18 Unknown And as adults we are often, you know, quite integrated and how we put those parts out into the world. And we have those versions. But the versions that come up and stress, you know, are often the same, whether it is our home or our work. It's interesting with kids, actually, because I often say to them, gosh, how come you can control this anger part of you when you were at school? 01:03:30:19 - 01:03:47:10 Unknown Because they'll come in and say, you don't understand me. You know you don't understand. I can't control this anger thing. And I say, it's interesting though, isn't it, because your teacher says you are fantastic in the classroom or in the playground, and lots of things must happen in there, that is. And then they'll start to charge. Oh, yeah. 01:03:47:11 - 01:04:06:04 Unknown So and so did this to me and I. You can control that. Wow. I wonder what it is that happens nine out of ten times. They say, oh, my teacher is really strict. Oh I don't want to go and see the principal. So I think that that's why when we do go into the workspace, we do have a bit of coverage to put a certain version of ourselves. 01:04:06:08 - 01:04:40:16 Unknown But there can be things that when you're a leader, people around you can trigger within you. And so I'm very passionate in that leadership space around being able to give permission to leaders to actually just pause for a second. I think I remember listening actually, to Nelson. It was a podcast around, leadership. And one of the I think was Simon Sinek actually had said about Nelson Mandela, and he said that his father, who was, from his his home tribe, he was an amazing porter. 01:04:40:18 - 01:05:02:12 Unknown I thought it was a ship horn just gone there second. Yeah, because otherwise it was okay. Here above, you should go back to where you were saying. I heard, I heard on the podcast. So I heard on a podcast with Simon Sinek and he was talking about great leadership, and he was talking about Nelson Mandela and why it was so many people believe that Nelson Mandela is one of the greatest leaders. 01:05:02:14 - 01:05:26:19 Unknown And he remembered, reading that Nelson Mandela had said that his father, he believed to be the greatest leader because he was the last to talk in any meetings that he was in, and about what that actually meant for the people that he was leading. And I thought that was so profound and actually really connected with me around sitting in the yuck. 01:05:26:21 - 01:05:55:12 Unknown Because sitting in the yuk is about was being present. It's actually showing up and listening, validating those feelings and then being able to move to what you know. I suppose it's also helping a child to be able to dig deep and to begin to think about how do I get to the next moment, because I guess one of the other things I talk with parents about is in this separation journey, or whatever it is that's going on in their lives. 01:05:55:14 - 01:06:18:24 Unknown You want children to develop resilience, but as you know, the greatest cost of the rescue is the resilience that doesn't get the chance to grow. Yeah. For sure. I want to talk to you about, when one parent is trying to work through an amicable divorce, but the other parent isn't. And how do we manage that? And I also got some questions from our listeners I want to put to you. 01:06:19:00 - 01:06:42:10 Unknown Oh, okay. But before I get to that, I want to return to something you said, Marcel, about first. The first the first Christmas, the first Easter, the first birthday, the first Father's Day, the first Mother's Day. Yes. I remember coming to Australia. And Paul Kelly is an extraordinary famous Australian singer songwriter who I knew of from my Irish background because he's quite famous over there. 01:06:42:16 - 01:07:18:03 Unknown And his son how to make Gravy. When I first heard like, oh, that's a really cute song about the guy in prison and writing home, and he's not getting to spend Christmas with his family. And it was beautiful. The first Christmas I had without my daughter and son. I played that song all day and I cried for hours, which I wasn't expecting at all because, we had a great up front, the whole piece and our process of Kate and I managing and how my daughter and son spent time with us worked really well. 01:07:18:05 - 01:07:52:16 Unknown And we we had managed, you know, if if my daughter and son were with Kate on Father's Day, we still had four day breakfast and stuff. So we managed that really well. Yeah, Christmas was different. What's your experience of firsts in terms of how people navigate first? I always try to say to people for the first Christmas to try and put some differences aside and see if you can actually spend the Christmas morning together or like one event together before you do your separate things. 01:07:52:18 - 01:08:26:14 Unknown That shows a united front, you know, like sometimes when the kids come down and getting Santa presents because Santa always it can vary use years after that. You know, Santa is very generous at one house compared to the other. And so we try to do the first one together. Just so that the kids can get used to the idea that mum and dad can still be in the same space, and, and and then move on from that in terms of, you know, future years, the Father's Day, Mother's Days are always really hard. 01:08:26:20 - 01:08:54:23 Unknown Because if it is not on your weekend, then the logistics, you know, you have to pick up the kids from the day before or the night before, or the morning of, So always try to preempt that and organize the nights or the, the schedule with the, the other parent as soon as possible. And, so that the kids are not involved in seeing that logistical change, you know. 01:08:55:02 - 01:09:17:21 Unknown Oh, you're going to dad's now because it's Father's Day and it's, you know, it's important. So it's it's more sort of like saying, okay, it's Father's Day. You're going to spend time with dad, and he's going to pick you up from the night before so that the children are not living through that transition. Or the other thing is that I sometimes, suggest to people is create your new traditions, because that's the other thing. 01:09:17:22 - 01:09:38:06 Unknown You know, you don't have to keep the same tradition. But it's an opportunity for you to create new ones with the children. Such as what? So, I know for me, I preempted the Christmas. And I started doing Christmas in July because I knew then I could have every July. Yeah, right. Matter when it doesn't really matter. 01:09:38:06 - 01:10:09:05 Unknown And. And Christmas is just a time. And we get to celebrate two Christmases. But, yeah, I created Christmas in July, and we had gifts, but not to the same scale as Christmas. You know, we had a limit on those things, and it would ensure that the kids will have Christmas in July every year. So, you can create new traditions with children, and that could be something that they can pick up with you. 01:10:09:07 - 01:10:32:14 Unknown That's new. And it's not having to put them in a position where our well, the split loyalties is the biggest thing. And what I love about that is the emotion of not spending Christmas in December is decreased by. Oh, we had a six months ago. That's right. So you're not having to wait a whole year and then. 01:10:32:17 - 01:10:52:09 Unknown Oh is it mum's. You know Chris breakfast and lunch. So they don't have to start thinking about that. Yeah. You create new traditions. It doesn't. You can pick up in Australia where it's so multicultural. We can just pick up any tradition really, and just make it our own and celebrate that with your children. In our house, we've met a massive tradition. 01:10:52:11 - 01:11:16:00 Unknown It wasn't planned to just become a massive tradition of decorating the Christmas tree. Yeah, and when our kids were young, when I say our in my in my, when I married, now we have we have five children. My two and I've got three daughters as well with Carol. And we have made decorating the Christmas tree the big tradition to the extent that when the kids were younger, all their friends would come along, cousins would come along. 01:11:16:02 - 01:11:35:21 Unknown We had a big deal of play. Mariah Carey about ten times in a row. We'd recorded on cameras. And over the years you're watching the kids get older, but the same Christmas tree and stuff. And that's become the tradition which we all talk about. And so therefore, any emotion about not having something else is just falls away, which is your point. 01:11:36:01 - 01:11:58:24 Unknown And I think that that's the important part in relationships ending, is that we're always thinking about what we're losing. And, you know, I've lost this. And and it's important to acknowledge that loss. But we also need to look at what are some of the things that we can build moving forward. And when you start looking at things that you can be moving forward, it's it's future planning. 01:11:58:24 - 01:12:21:18 Unknown It gives people a lot of hope. And, it's not dismissing what you had, but it's just a new journey. And I find that that's really helpful for a lot of people. And I think the snow globe idea fits with that. Actually, I was just thinking about that because parents can't recreate the old snow globe. But what they can do is help kids piece together a new one. 01:12:21:19 - 01:12:48:06 Unknown Yeah. And so it lends itself like that. And I totally agree with what you said around Christmas, because I know in my work I've had to do some really hard negotiating and difficult spaces with parents about, especially when kids are little. And Santa. Yeah, because there's so much grief and loss around what separation means in their everyday lives that to be able to just put things aside. 01:12:48:06 - 01:13:11:04 Unknown And I've had family, parents who have been so courageous in this space, you know, being able to find the strength to put aside their differences even for three hours. So and that parent come into the house and the child wakes up and hideously early morning hours and both parents are there, which actually do might be hungover, but they're, they're there. 01:13:11:08 - 01:13:41:10 Unknown But the the for that child, you know, they come in beaming and saying, oh mummy and daddy and and we've got to remember like keystone memories, like what is held in a child's mind. And, you know, those first birthdays as well, we don't want children burdened with is mum, dad or dad's or you know, whatever the configuration is of the carers, is one going to be excluded because we know how painful rejection is. 01:13:41:10 - 01:14:17:12 Unknown We know with our children, when they're struggling in school with friendships and feeling rejected. Rejection is painful and they don't want that for the other parents. So I think, you know, really important. And the other thing I was just going to add with Mother's Day and Father's Day is, gosh, again, courageous parenting, courageous parent leaders who are able to step into the space by the present, help the child, make the present, make the card for the other parent, because that gives such a strong message to a child, which is actually, oh, dad, mum, whoever the Kiera is, they really care about the other person. 01:14:17:14 - 01:14:39:24 Unknown And then that present goes with such love. And I just find that those moments have been game changers as well in children's. Well. Well, that goes back to your earlier point, Marcel, which I think is to me, it's the biggest thing I'm getting from this conversation today is we as adults going through a very difficult time, which is a separation, actually. 01:14:40:00 - 01:15:15:17 Unknown One caveat those of us who are instigating it might be feeling happy because we're moving somewhere else. We're excited. Yeah, we might be feeling guilty, but we're excited. But but there's a lot of, upset around the separation. What you're saying to us is that's finally good for you. You you, you. That's all true for you. You cannot treat the child as a material object, and you cannot use them as a, as a, a battering ram against the other or as a, a reason to argue against or for somewhere to dump your anger about that person onto your child, because that's where the long term effect is. 01:15:15:18 - 01:15:36:12 Unknown And if you can just think about they are a human, how do we put them first? Yes, you still might be angry or upset or betrayed or whatever you're going through, or indeed excited, but they are first, sometimes actually with parents who are coming in wanting to begin the conversation. I actually show them a video of a sonogram. 01:15:36:14 - 01:16:10:10 Unknown I get them back into the space of when they began their parenting journey. So we begin to think about the promises, the hopes, the possibilities of becoming a parent and having this tiny baby who's not yet come into the world. And it's sometimes quite helpful to shift the thinking to the child. Before I get to our listeners questions, let's talk about the parent who's trying to be amicable, who's implementing all the good stuff you've shared today, but the other person isn't. 01:16:10:12 - 01:16:41:08 Unknown How do they manage that? Yeah. My advice in that particular situation, if you can't get the other parent on board, is obviously you can't control what the other person do does. But, it's important for you to maintain your side of the bridge, do whatever that you can do in order to facilitate that, do whatever that you can do in order to keep your child as stable as possible. 01:16:41:10 - 01:17:02:10 Unknown And that's probably the best advice I usually sort of say to a lot of my parents going through, do the things that keep your kids stable and stop worrying about what happens on the other side. As long as you maintain that, I think kids grow up knowing where they're safe space will be. And they will end up making that decision, themselves. 01:17:02:13 - 01:17:12:04 Unknown And also, I think I say to parents, you know, in these situations, you have the power to put your sword down, but you don't have the power to make the other parent put their. 01:17:12:08 - 01:17:47:21 Unknown Over time, and all you can do is facilitate and try to create that relational safety and the safe space. Now, again, in the circumstances described earlier where a child may choose a the other space. But what I kind of help parents to try to invest in is as long as they keep showing up, they keep kind of being present, no matter what the circumstances are, that that child does begin to have an internal sense of that parent, the relationship, and that they've kept showing up in that relationship. 01:17:48:00 - 01:18:09:09 Unknown Because ultimately, you know, any kind of parenting kids, kids are lent to us. And our job, I think, I always think there's three pillars in parenting. There's keeping them safe. There's loving them and helping them to be the best version of themselves in the world. And you know what I have seen over the years as children who have really struggled in this space. 01:18:09:10 - 01:18:32:09 Unknown But when that parent has kept showing up, even though it's incredibly difficult, that child knows that they are loved. That child knows that they can go back into that space and that they have that relationship. It may not be the everyday moments, but that relationship is still there because it's in their mind and it's in their heart. Can we just pause there for a second? 01:18:32:10 - 01:18:42:24 Unknown You just have to, maybe I'll ask us to top up my car. Is that okay for the part? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah. 01:18:43:01 - 01:19:05:00 Unknown How are you finding this? Oh. It's great. I'm loving it. I'm Scottish. I'd love to talk. Of course you did. As you're talking about. Put down the sword. My immediate brain went to Saint George and the dragon, and so I was going to make a cover. You're a Scottish. You're not English. I'm a unicorn, remember? Possibility. 01:19:05:02 - 01:19:24:20 Unknown No. I'm just so excited about this. I mean, because some of. I mean, I won't say this one here, but, you know, I am working with suicidal kids right now, and it come, you know, the common denominator. And all of them is horrific divorces at particular ages as well, because the impact is different at different ages. 01:19:24:22 - 01:19:49:01 Unknown We reached out to Relationships Australia yesterday to see a head of recording this, to see if they want to be involved in this episode in some way, because this might help what they're doing. And who else we reached out to was one of the kids are one of the kids organizations for the same thing, because I think what you guys are talking about is when we were doing our research, we couldn't find a lot around this, as in not many podcast episodes. 01:19:49:01 - 01:20:16:07 Unknown So it's it's such an important topic. Yeah, yeah. All right. Let's go again. So we as you know, we had Naomi on here. April. April 2026. And it, a lot of feedback about the episode. A lot of listeners loved it. And quite a few people send in comments and questions. And so knowing that you're coming back, Naomi, and bringing your best friend Marcel with us, we we reached out to a few of those. 01:20:16:07 - 01:20:34:23 Unknown This was to go, hey, guess what we have in the back on? And we have someone equally passionate and educated and experienced in this area as she is. What would you like to ask? And so we got three questions for you. So the first one for you. Me second for you, Marcel. And the third one you can argue about in terms of who answers it. 01:20:35:00 - 01:20:54:04 Unknown So Alan is in Sydney. Yeah. And his question is, I constantly feel the urge to be the good cop to win favor with my son by giving him what he wants. Deep down, I know it's not always in his best interests, but in the moment, it feels good to be the parent who makes him happy. When I feel responsible for the divorce, how do I resist that temptation? 01:20:54:06 - 01:21:12:19 Unknown Oh, we get a lot of that. I get a lot of that from dads, and I also get a lot of that on the mums forums where they go, oh, it's the Disney dad, Disneyland dad. And that's really important. I think it's important for Alan and other dads out there to really have firm boundaries as well with their kids. 01:21:12:23 - 01:21:38:23 Unknown You can't always say yes to everything because the stakes get more each time. And there has to be a cap. I think the important thing, that an important conversation I had with my partner was that he always wanted to make sure that when the kids traveled between his house and his ex-wife's house, that fair living standards didn't drop. 01:21:39:00 - 01:22:02:08 Unknown So it's really important for the kids to not have extravagant gifts at any particular house, as tempting as it is. But I think it's because when you're actually doing that, you're actually highlighting what they don't have at the other household. So it might be the intention. Yeah. Maybe the intention, but it's not long. It's not a really good choice long term. 01:22:02:13 - 01:22:28:20 Unknown So it's really important for them, to really be grounded in what you actually provide for your kids and how expensive things can can get as well. You know, try to refrain from buying expensive gifts and saying yes all the time. There definitely has to be boundaries in place. Yeah, well, because boundaries, even though kids, you know, I mean, kids job is to push back on boundaries. 01:22:28:21 - 01:22:55:01 Unknown Parents job is to set the boundaries because boundaries are about safety. And I'm just thinking about, you know, in the teenage years when the different homes and how they play each other off against each other, if one house is wobbly with boundaries and the other is not, then what you see is kids going to the the host. That's who got the wobbly boundaries, but they end up in a whole heap of trickiness and trouble, trickiness, trickiness and trouble. 01:22:55:03 - 01:23:02:03 Unknown So the problem is that the the academic term, is it trickiness in trouble, the one I. 01:23:02:05 - 01:23:22:07 Unknown But it is true because once you you you think that you're actually making them happy in the short term. But it's and but you can potentially create a lot more problems for them long term. So so great standards agree on boundaries. That's the first rule. And as they do get older, they they they know which parents to fleece as well. 01:23:22:12 - 01:23:45:24 Unknown So they can be tricky. But teenagers, the interesting thing in working with kids is that even though they don't like the boundaries and you know which parent or who out there has never had their child say, I hate you. You're the worst parent ever. We have to be able to hold those things that get flown at us. We can have a conversation about how they're not okay and they're hurtful. 01:23:46:01 - 01:24:07:03 Unknown But children, you know, adolescents, their job is to push back. And there's going to be a lot of tricky times and and down time. Messy life is messy. There's going to be lots of mess. I remember a school principal who I hyper respect as one of the best principals ever met in my life, and I remember him for something once as part of a high school thing. 01:24:07:08 - 01:24:29:18 Unknown And I wasn't expecting this outcome. But I said to her on stage and for the high school and, you know, you seem to be quite clear with it and boundaries in the schools because, yeah, I learned a long time ago, don't smile till Easter. Now, for folks who are not in Australia, that means schools start in January. That don't smile till Easter means you're setting the rules very early and the whole room left the course. 01:24:29:18 - 01:24:51:14 Unknown But then actually, she's right. What? She's really clear. And it's really interesting that you mention about the kids not liking the boundaries, but once they actually started going to uni, the stories that I came that came back home from my two older boys were they were actually comparing to see who which parents were the strictest when they were going through, and they actually appreciated that. 01:24:51:16 - 01:25:21:16 Unknown So when they come out on the other end, they they appreciate when you do say no. Well, because boundaries are love. They're not just safety. It it means that you actually really care about that person in front of you and you want to keep them safe. And I often say to parents, you know, if you can create a relationship where your child knows no matter what ever happens in the world and in their world, they can pick up the phone if they're in trouble and that they're not worried about. 01:25:21:17 - 01:25:45:06 Unknown They're not as worried about your reaction as their safety. Then you know you've done a great job because that's what we want for kids. And I suppose I'm very passionate in that space with my kids. I'm like, you know, whatever happens, I will have feelings about it. Of course I will, depending on what the thing is. But those feelings are never going to top your safety and for them to be able to fall. 01:25:45:06 - 01:26:09:05 Unknown In fact, I got a funny. Well, it wasn't funny at the time. It was one of those midnight phone calls with my eldest son overseas crying really upset. His mum, mum, mum, he said I've lost both of my passports. I'm like both of them. What do you mean how can you lose both? But again, you know, we go into and I mean I did do a bit of rescuing there because after all, he was in Greece and he was with our passports. 01:26:09:10 - 01:26:28:02 Unknown But, you know, that's what parents do. We're we're there were the safety nets. So sometimes, you know, when I say about sitting in the UK and no rescuing, there are times, of course, we have to rescue because whatever they're facing is too big for them. And we have two different areas. He feels safe enough to call you, even if he's in trouble. 01:26:28:02 - 01:26:45:11 Unknown And even if it was all his own fault, who knows what happened. But. Right. That's really what it was. I see, that was all right. Question number two. This is from a lady called Josie and she is in Auckland as far as I know. And her question is, my ex and I agreed that we wouldn't give our daughter a phone until she turned 13. 01:26:45:17 - 01:27:10:06 Unknown She's only 12 and I'm just a second. My ex has given her one. This isn't the first time in agreement we've made about parenting has been broken. How do you navigate co-parenting when one parent discards the boundaries we've agreed on? Yeah, I see this is not an uncommon one, unfortunately, and especially in this little age group of the 11 to 13 year olds. 01:27:10:08 - 01:27:30:08 Unknown I think again, it's giving you yourself permission to have the feelings you have. But I guess for that child, they are really probably very happy that they've got this beautiful new phone and they're excited. And the last thing they want to hear is that they're the parent who's given that phone is bad in some ways, or are not paying attention to the boundaries. 01:27:30:10 - 01:27:55:17 Unknown Again, it has to be taken into the adult world. And I guess what sometimes I say to parents is as hard as this is because the first space you go is you've broken our agreement and that's betrayal again, is where possible. And even if you have to rehearse it, sometimes I say to them, take your phone, do a voice message, voice text about what you really want to see, then pause and then try and see. 01:27:55:18 - 01:28:16:09 Unknown Could I make this more curious? Because sometimes parents do give those phones because there may be feeling that they're not part of that child's life. There may be feeling that they want more connection. They maybe don't want to go through the mum or dad's phone to get to the child. There's lots of different reasons why those things happen. 01:28:16:09 - 01:28:51:24 Unknown I'm not saying that sometimes it isn't about just despite the other parent, because sometimes it is. But I think if you can go in curious and say, gosh. Why did you do that? Didn't we have an agreement? You know, I'm really concerned about social media with our daughter being the age she is. You know what? And then think again, I guess, about in your own home as well, about what are going to be your roles because, you know, whether an often we say, you know, absolutely not having it in the bedroom because what happens in this age group is often, you know, kids will be on WhatsApp and different kids have different rules around phones 01:28:51:24 - 01:29:19:11 Unknown and messages can come through that are overwhelming. So it's all key to set up your boundaries once that phone is in place and those are your boundaries, when that phone is there. I think it gets tricky when sometimes parents as well use that phone as a consequence and they take it away. Because if that is the only way that that child communicates with their with their dad, their mom or whoever is caring for them in the other home, it becomes like this big conflict. 01:29:19:15 - 01:29:48:11 Unknown So once it's in place, I think you have to do some really careful good thinking about how you're going to manage it and what the rules are. Okay. And then this is from Mike, who I know is in London because he has messages quite a lot. Thank you Mike. My kids often tell me negative stories about my ex's new partner, and if I'm being completely honest, sometimes I get a little satisfaction from what they share, but I worry they might be telling me these stories to make me feel better rather than expressing how they really feel. 01:29:48:13 - 01:30:14:20 Unknown I know my emotions are not their responsibility. That's an enlightened man. So how do I make sure they feel free to share their experiences without feeling the need to protect me? That's the truth. I think it is a really tricky one because it feeds into the adult emotions, doesn't care about how you feel. But again it goes back to something I guess we were talking about earlier which is your nonverbal. 01:30:14:24 - 01:30:52:01 Unknown Yeah. So children again as human beings as we all do, we're scanning the face the body language of the other person to see what is safe, what is threatening. And this is like a really important moment of a child figuring out, is this okay to talk about, or do I have to compartmentalize my life? And so if they see openness in your face, and sometimes you have to almost do the pre-work around this, there's going to be a point where something like this is going to come up where children, because children don't want to come out mental as their life that causes stress. 01:30:52:03 - 01:31:23:21 Unknown And so if you can be open and again find the courage to be curious and to go, oh gosh, you know, what was it that was going on there? Like, what were you doing that opens the gate that that child then knows you are a safe person? And you're open to hearing about their life no matter what that looks like and where it is, because I know that I work with some kids and have done over the years where they get very clear messages from the other parent about the other parents partners. 01:31:24:00 - 01:31:47:08 Unknown And so that child then goes into that home heating, that partner, and it causes all sorts of conflict because they've got even from that tiny moment, the message, oh, gosh, you know, that's going to hurt my dad or it's going to hurt my mom. So I can't like that person. Yeah, that place of curiosity is really important. Just asking them more questions so that they can not in interrogate interrogation. 01:31:47:08 - 01:32:16:16 Unknown No. Absolutely not. Interrogation I can help. Yes. I couldn't even get that word out. But yeah, so that they they don't feel like they're being interrogated, interrogated, interrogated. It's the flow of conversation is it is. And just being curious, like, oh, and how did that make you feel? Or, you know what? Some of the things that you can learn about it, I usually talk about, what things have you learned from that? 01:32:16:18 - 01:32:33:15 Unknown Yeah. And I think as well, you know, for that, for a parent, for Mike in this case and all the other parents out there is being able to talk to your support system about how that made you feel. And, you know, being able to say, gosh, I really want you to see her, but that's not what we need to say to children. 01:32:33:15 - 01:32:56:17 Unknown We need to practice that. Even if we practice it in the mirror, practice our game face of receiving that really painful or confronting information about how we want to be with our child in that moment, because it actually speaks to a much bigger picture around the relationship and communication. Yeah. Thank you both. There are three very useful questions there from three listeners. 01:32:56:17 - 01:33:21:08 Unknown I'm reminded as we as we finish up today, I think we've come a long way from that song and Cat in the cradle, Harry Chapin, where the dad ignored the son. The son grew up to be the exact same as the dad. I think we're now the situation where that's a lot more aware of the impact they do have, and this conversation is how much impact we can proactively have if we're conscious. 01:33:21:08 - 01:33:37:19 Unknown Decoupling. To go back to Gwyneth Paltrow, at least conscious, aware of ourselves in that piece. So thank you both for all the wisdom shared. Last question for each of you, for the listener listening to this going, this has been great. What do I what's the one thing I start with? What do I do? What's the one thing I take from this? 01:33:37:21 - 01:34:13:19 Unknown I think I would want to say that separation isn't the thing that causes or can contribute rather to, you know, the adverse impact on kids mental health. It's being in the middle of the conflict. It's disconnection. Those are the things that actually have the greatest harm. And again, taking parents back to where they began as parents, they made a promise when the many parents, when they become parents to to do the best for their child to be the best version of themselves. 01:34:13:23 - 01:34:42:06 Unknown And I know that that is really hard to do when you're faced with grief, loss, and all the complex feelings around separation, but so important that it's disconnection. It's high parental conflict that we know causes the greatest harm. For me, I think all parents going through separation cannot be arrogant enough to say the problem isn't me. 01:34:42:08 - 01:35:07:11 Unknown I think they need to say I was part of that problem or that relationship breakdown. And all parents should go through some sort of post separating parenting course. Another course that is always good to do is the circle security. And I know that that program is available worldwide. So a lot of parents can do that. 01:35:07:11 - 01:35:37:03 Unknown And I would really encourage people to see what programs that they can do to improve the situation that they find themselves in as opposed to, well, you know, he decided to leave the relationship. He needs to fix it up and make it all work. Or she decided to, you know, so it's it stops that blame. But it's about what actions can I take from today with the information that I have, and how can I improve that situation? 01:35:37:04 - 01:36:01:22 Unknown By doing parenting courses, learning to connect more with the kids. So that's my advice. Thank you both so much. Every our listeners are all about 40. And I can guarantee every single listener will either be going through a separation, have gone through a separation or know someone who is gone through a separation. So what we talked about today is really, really useful for so many people. 01:36:01:22 - 01:36:22:22 Unknown So appreciate you both. Come in here. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to talk about something that is so close to our hearts and that we're so passionate about. Yes, and the great psychology behind all the stuff that we need to do. So it's good having our expert on board. Oh, thank you to my friend. 01:36:22:24 - 01:36:44:16 Unknown Beautiful doing that. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thanks. That was really good. Thank you so much. Yeah. You've got so much to share in that space. I know I've been making notes the whole way through. The notes are far. Oh, that's a great clip. That's a great clip. But just forgot to mention is that we're actually in the process of doing a course like we're putting together an online course. 01:36:44:18 - 01:37:08:22 Unknown Let's let's go back to that. Okay. So, let me ask a question about if if people want to know more about your work. So do you want to be one answer that question about the course. Yeah. You can. Yeah, yeah. Hey, I was just going to record one more question before we open the curtain. Thanks. So for people who really got a lot of insight from our conversation today, if they want to know more about your work. 01:37:08:24 - 01:37:39:19 Unknown Where should they go? So Naomi and I are actually in the process of building a program that we hope for parents is going to be a roadmap with lots of practical ideas and thoughtful ideas, lots of things we've talked about today in our conversation. And our hope is really to try and almost have it as a preparation before family or parents, go towards the mediation space. 01:37:39:19 - 01:38:06:09 Unknown So we certainly work with a lot of incredible mediators and lawyers, and we're hoping that that will help parents to really do some really good, thoughtful thinking about themselves and the impact on themselves as well as their kids. And so we're hoping to share lots of things we talked about today. In the space of that course, it will be an online course, where it can be self-paced. 01:38:06:11 - 01:38:39:20 Unknown Yeah. So it's it's basically parents who find themselves in that separation space. And before they actually make any grand decisions or rash decisions to actually do this course, to understand the psychology behind why we do what we do, how we need to approach and what's the end goal and what's important. Less about the fighting of who has the children for Christmas Day, but more the long term decisions on what we actually want for our children to be growing up as adults. 01:38:39:21 - 01:39:00:00 Unknown I would love to have heard that a number of years ago, but I, I can imagine so many people will want and need that. So when it's ready to go. Come back and talk to us. We do love to. Lovely. Thank you. Well, when will it be going? You know, I think, April. Did you think we can get it there in April? 01:39:00:02 - 01:39:22:06 Unknown Okay. Just can you divorce? And then I've launched all these stuff. Brilliant. Yeah. But it's interesting because we're speaking to some incredible mediators actually. And just, you know, trying to see that this could fill in a gap that's not there just now to really help parents then go into that mediation space, hopefully avoid court because that doesn't. 01:39:22:11 - 01:39:40:17 Unknown That's a large space. It never ends well. And so they go in there do having done some of this pre thinking so that they're in a space where they're thinking, truly thinking about what's in the best interest of the child as we go into that space where decisions are made. So are you going to write a book alongside it. 01:39:40:17 - 01:40:02:14 Unknown Do you think are you going to just test it first. And then we have, we've talked about that and I think we should. Yeah. Yeah. You know like we've just been formulating six weeks or six modules. And it takes them through the different stages. And then, yeah, we're sort of like doing a lot. Should we do an episode when you're ready? 01:40:02:17 - 01:40:19:15 Unknown Yeah. Like when we know what you've done. Yeah. We can do an episode around that costs culture the six key areas of an episode. Yeah. And we're going to be doing a little bit of pre-work and talking with mediators as well about what it is that they would like from the space. So we can kind of, you know, shape our, our content as well around that. 01:40:19:16 - 01:40:44:17 Unknown Okay. So you'll be writing your book. I'm writing my book on sitting in the yuck. And we'll be doing this and a book and raising children as well. And running practices. Excellent. Well, that's what you were doing. I think it's like since we last spoke, I ended up joining a lot of the dads rights groups. And there's a couple of, you know, poisoned eggs in there that were just like, you know, and we're we're trying to change that landscape from in.
